<p>My S applied to two service academies and was in the process of applying to three other schools when the Nominations and LOAs came in, he just never applied anywhere else. I’m sure there are plenty of cases like this that bring the average down.</p>
<p>I read somewhere on this board that if your child is applying to ultra-selective schools , then all of the schools in that stratosphere on your list really have to count as ONE school because of the low acceptance rates and an admissions culture in which acceptance is not a given based on stats. IMO, this is something that really has to be an individual decision. What’s right for one student’s situation is not necessarily right for another. I know that my S wanted more than one option for his selective reach and match schools, and he was willing to put in the effort. Although he got into his ED school, he had 8 other apps ready to go, so he had already done all the work on those as well. It’s not such a bad message for the kids to know that you get out of a job what you put in. More effort= more options. You don’t end up closing doors unnecessarily.</p>
<p>The perspective of the typical high school student does not fit my D. I understand that the average student has an SAT of about 1000. About 50% of HS kids go to college and of these only about 1/3 graduate within 4 years. I am sure for the typical HS student, college selections and application are not a major issue. For many, the basic concern is whether they can get into the local State U or need to go to community college.</p>
<p>The suggestion to look for well-targeted schools may fit some HS students. It is great advice to have reasonable expectations and to look for colleges where you want to go and where admission is likely. That advice may not fit many kids. Most of us are on this forum because we have exceptional kids and they are looking for the best possible opportunities. More and more, kids are finding that the schools with strong academic offerings are very selective. For some of our kids, there are NO “well-targeted” schools where the kid wants to go and admission is likely. My D worked very hard in HS and has a lot of self-discipline and determination. It was not possible to convince her to love a school with academics considerably lower than her abilities or interests.</p>
<p>I think the advice to target the type of school for you is particulary good.
OUr local state school, the university of wa, is unfortunately used as a “safety” for students from my D high school. These kids often have many AP classes, they have been in the top academic program in our district since grade school, and they are eager to attend college.
However, now that the UW is so competitive, that even a 3.70 GPA isn’t enough for automatic acceptance( APs are not weighted), they are having to take a closer look at what sort of schools that really suit them.
I mean isn’t there anything inbetween the local U and Yale?</p>
<p>My kid applied to two schools: the state flagship (where he would not have been happy to attend, but would have allowed lots of financial options for his family) and his first choice schol. His early admit at that first choice, combined with generous FA, led to his not finishing his other applications.</p>
<p>slipper, good post. </p>
<p>Our area is a bit above average nationally but not by a whole lot. I’m constantly stunned at the college lists offered by high school seniors and their parents ( I just bite my tongue). Any presumption that the college list is “well thought out”, well it just doesn’t seem to happen too often outside of this CC type of population. </p>
<p>Mostly what I hear is kids and parents aiming too low. A lot is financial. They don’t even look at expensive privates because they don’t know about merit aid. So yes they apply to 4 schools and get in their first choice which is usually A) below what they could have gotten into and B) affordable. A “well targeted list” for those on this board applying to elite schools better have more than 4 on it.</p>
<p>Following Carolyn’s advice is a sure-fire way to risk ending up at your safety.>></p>
<p>Slipper, then you didn’t read my advice carefully. I said build a WELL-TARGETED list which includes at least one safety. That means you consider what you have to offer, what schools are looking for, and try to target schools that are a match between the two. Nothing wrong with reach schools, but a list comprised entirely of reach schools is not a WELL-TARGETED list. A well-targeted list means you are more likely to end up at one of your top choices, not less likely as you suggest. It is a shame that people automatically equate “safe bet” with “inferior.” A well-chosen safe bet should not be inferior to the other schools on your list, but rather a school where you have a greater chance of admission.</p>
<p>Also, I am not suggesting that anyone apply to only 4 schools — I was surprised as anyone by those numbers — but rather that if you build a well-targeted list, where there is a solid match up between what you have to offer and what the schools on your lists are looking for or need, you may not need to apply to 12+ schools. </p>
<p>I think roshke brought up a good point - some of the numbers may be influenced by ED/EA applicants. But, the total number of ED admits is probably not large enough to explain these numbers entirely.</p>
<p>2331clk, At my D’s HS, we also saw many kids who had great SATs and grades, but were content to apply to mediocre State schools. I guess it made the whole process easy - a few quick tours and a handful of applications. For many kids and their families, a college education is expected but the academic experience does not seem to be valued.</p>
<p>Mostly what I hear is kids and parents aiming too low.>></p>
<p>How do you know they are aiming too low? By what criteria are you judging the choices of other people? </p>
<p>I believe that part of the hysteria surrounding admissions lies in just what is implied in your statement: people feel they will be judged if they don’t go to a school that others deem is “good enough.” Sorry, but in my mind, kids should be looking at what is good for them…and no one else should be making value judgements about their choices.</p>
<p>
This is a point worth repeating, over and over if necessary. Too many students think that a good list includes all the Ivys and their state school. </p>
<p>Carolyn’s point, as I understand it, is for a student (hopefully, with parental input regarding financial and other constraints) to carefully evaluate his/her needs and desires as well as their REALISTIC chances of admission at a range of schools. I think that it is only those students who are competing at the most selective (top 50 or so) or who really want to compare FA packages who need to apply to 8+ schools. For the record, I encouraged my son to apply to too many schools, and we could have trimmed it significantly.</p>
<p>Sjmom,
Yes, you get my point exactly. Thank you.</p>
<p>I have reread my post, and apparently there is some misunderstanding about what I wrote (already received a PM about it). I NEVER implied nor do I feel that all students should be applying to four schools or less. This is a personal family decision. AND the information I related from my finaid friend was just that…information from my finaid friend from her observations and information. Not necessarily the gospel…but info. She worked closely with admissions while doing her finaid job. This is what she shared. I do agree that Carolyn’s advice is sound. The student should have a well targeted list REGARDLESS of how many schools they ultimately apply to. And I found the article she spoke about interesting (I actually read it) regarding the high percentage of students who apply to less schools. I can tell you that where I live that is not the case either. One more thing…I’d like to know the citation for the info about students who apply to less than four schools only applying to local schools. Again…where I am, that is not the case at all.</p>
<p>Thumper, The survey does ask about distance from home, but does not break it down by how many colleges were applied to. </p>
<p>Only 12.6 percent of the 263,000 freshmen who completed the survey are at colleges over 500 miles from their permanent home. This confirms other research that I have seen in the past: the vast majority of students - regardless of how many schools they apply to or how selective the schools they apply to are - stay within 500 miles of home. In this way, many CC students/parents are also different from the national norm. </p>
<p>This may also help explain why some students/parents in some parts of the country may feel it is necessary to apply to more schools — they don’t want to consider options outside of their geographic area, and if that geographic area is a hyper-competitive admissions market, they feel they need to apply to more schools. Of course, there are many parts of the country where there are still excellent admissions values to be had - schools with stellar academics but less killing acceptance rates. </p>
<p>Here are the main reasons students cited for choosing their college:</p>
<p>College has a very good academic reputation 57.9%
Graduates get good jobs 51.2%
A visit to the campus 42.2
Wanted to go to a college about the size of this one 38.6
Was offered financial assistance 35.4</p>
<p>Again, there is much more information in the actual survey, which can be found on the link I gave initially.</p>
<p>And, other factors worth considering when thinking about choices students make:</p>
<p>Parent education levels of this year’s incoming freshmen:</p>
<ul>
<li>Grammar school or less<br>
Father: 2.8% Mother: 2.4%</li>
<li>Some high school<br>
Father: 4.6 Mother: 3.4</li>
<li>High school graduate<br>
Father: 21.3 Mother: 20.7</li>
<li>Postsecondary other than college
Father: 3.6 Mother: 4.1</li>
<li>Some college<br>
Father: 14.8 Mother: 17.1</li>
<li>College degree<br>
Father: 27.9 Mother: 31.8</li>
<li>Some graduate school<br>
Father: 2.1 Mother: 2.7</li>
<li>Graduate degree<br>
Father: 22.9 Mother: 17.7</li>
</ul>
<hr>
<p>Estimated parental income
Under $50,000 26%
50,000-59,999 9%
60,000-74,999 12
75,000-99,999 15
100,000-149,000 16.9
150,000+ 16.8</p>
<hr>
<h2>10.5% of incoming freshmen said they expected to borrow more than $10,000 to cover first-year expenses, 57% said they had “some” concern about financing four years of college, 13.2% said they had “major” concern about having enough funds to complete college.</h2>
<p>I think slipper’s assertions are rather extreme, however, I agree that sometimes limiting a college list is not the best option for elite students. At the highest level, admissions are so subjective that choosing one representative school from a particular selectivity range is not enough. Jus a few examples from my high school in the last several years demonstrate the point: A girl rejected from Yale, MIT, and Stanford, but accepted at Harvard, someone rejected at Brown and Columbia but in at Penn, someone rejected at Columbia and Penn but in at Brown, people shut out by every Ivy but accepted at a top LAC, etc.</p>
<p>A boy in my grade, on the advice of his kind of nutty mother, applied to almost every elite northeast school around. He had a 1550, and was aroune 19/360, with freshman year having been by far his weakest. He was an active member of a rather competitive mock trial team, and had won a couple of essay competitions, aside from some other decent ECs. Everyone thought his application list was nuts - until he was rejected by every Ivy, Georgetown, and some other great non-Ivies. Now, he did get accepted by four excellent schools - Haverford, Wesleyan, JHU and Swarthmore. However, had he whittled down his massive list further, it is possible that he would only have gotten into one of the four schools, or even none at all, and wound up at his safety. Even had he, gotten into one or two of the four, it is better to have a choice. Incidentally, he wound up choosing Swarthmore - a school that wouldn’t have been on the list had he decided that Amherst and Williams were enough.</p>
<p>Slipper, a student applying to Princeton, Amherst, and Middlebury and expecting to get into one of them has not done his or her homework, I don’t care if they are valedictorian. Schools like Colby and Skidmore don’t count as thoughtful safeties unless the student really would be happy to attend. </p>
<p>And I’m extremely dubious about rationalizations about applying to all the Ivies and top LAC’s. It’s as if the student is seeking a label, not a fit.</p>
<p>I agree with you on his mistake. But his mistake was not applying to enough reaches. Had he applied to Dartmouth, Duke, Penn, Brown, Williams (for example, are they THAT different to not apply to Amherst and williams) I am 100% confident he would have got into a top school, and one he would have perhaps preferred over Colby.</p>
<p>The top schools have more in common than they do different.</p>
<p>It is about the label if you wouln’t consider attending a great LAC over an Ivy because more people have heard of the Ivy. However, if the rationale beind your large list is that you want to go to a top-flight school where you will most likely find the top students and professors, I think it goes beyond the label appeal.</p>
<p>The reason people may apply to a lot of elite schools although some may not “fit” them is because a) there is no guarantee that one will get into the best fit school and b) although fit is important, many students realize that they will find their niche at a variety of schools. The kid who knows Yale and Brown are the only Ivies that “fit” his personality may wind up accepted at Penn or Cornell instead, and be completely happy there.</p>
<p>Thank god for SCEA. The pressure of finding a safety to love was the worst.</p>
<p>Another general reason to apply to a longer list of schools: indecision between LACs and larger schools.</p>
<p>I admit I haven’t read through all this, but off the top of my head - axioms like this seem meaningless to the individual. Not all applicants are alike - the student who knows she’s going to the community college (because of home responsibilities, finances, academic concerns, etc.) cannot be lumped with the student who is admitted to Harvard ED and neither can be lumped with the student with a strong academic record wishing to attend a top 10 university. </p>
<p>I think all that can be said about this is that for some students 4 schools is enough, for some it’s two or three too many, and for others it’s not enough.</p>