Mountain lions in PA

Parent Cafe
1

I’m curious what others would think if their state were doing this - or if you’re a PA resident, what you think.

According to our state, Mountain Lions in the wild do not exist here. They’ve been declared extinct as recently as this year (or maybe last).

BUT, a friend of ours rides with folks who had a 15.3hh horse attacked by one (very recently) while in a pasture overnight. There are large scratch marks on the haunches and smaller ones on the neck. Supposedly an Eastern Puma Association (might have that name a little wrong) came, investigated, and concluded the attack was definitely a cat/puma and that the cat is a resident nearby.

Since then, of course, the word is getting around among us horse/pony folks. Yesterday I talked with both my farrier and vet and separately heard stories of at least one person having a picture on a trailcam of a cat with a COLLAR on it (tracking collar) as well as numerous other sightings. Supposedly there are pictures of at least one on FB too (but I’m not a FB person to check).

Except for the attack, it’s all hearsay (to me). Pictures could be “created.” Sightings could be inaccurate. However, it all seems to lead to our state deliberately lying to residents about the existence of cats. Many believe they are doing so in order to successfully “restore” nature without worrying residents.

If that’s the case (and I’m leaning toward believing it with the latest actual evidence), would this bother you? It bothers me a TON. We have young foals - easy prey for big predators if they were to come our way. We hike(d) in our state a ton when my kids were young, often letting them wander on ahead since we didn’t have to worry. I know families still do this. We’d act differently if we knew predators were around. (We did out west…)

I can’t fathom how/why a state could ethically or legally deliberately lie to its residents.

I’m open to a discussion about this to help me figure out my own thoughts.

FWIW, I’ve heard the state still won’t admit there’s a cat even in the horse attack situation - not even with the other evidence found, but if there is one, apparently it’s illegal to kill it…

2

Pumas are very territorial and can have very large hunting grounds. Young males have to travel quite far to find new place to hunt or the resident can kill them apparently. I would not be surprised if this was a traveler passing through. If pumas are not “extinct” in neighboring states, that could be the explanation.

3

We have that issue with wolves, but the state doesn’t claim they don’t exist, only that there are none in the state. Of course wild animals can wander.

I think the state is saying there have been no recorded sightings for XX amount of time. If you have proof, you have to take precautions that make you feel safe, like not letting children ride ahead. What would you do if the state said there were lots of cats in your area, but that it was still illegal to shoot them in most circumstances (unless they are attacking a human, for example)?

4

Our first thought was a traveling cat - or one that had been an illegal pet and had been released recently - esp since it went after a horse instead of the numerous deer all around. According to the association that investigated, they think it’s a resident cat. They found areas they believe it’s been living in/bedding down, etc.

If we knew there were cats in our area, we definitely would have our farm set up differently to try to better protect our young foals and I sure wouldn’t have let our kids wander nearly as much by themselves when young. We’re not on the “edge” of the wilderness, so I’m warily continuing on with what we’ve done before pony-wise even though this factual evidence is closer than I’d like (within 20 miles). My kids are all grown, so that’s not an issue either, but I know way too many with young kids to be comfortable with our state pretending (at best) or lying (at worse) making them think the woods around are safer than they are - esp if they are purposely bringing cats back (as with a collared, trackable cat).

5

Our state said the same thing many years ago. My father was a logger and he saw one on more than one occasion. Maybe they were visiting us from PA.

I think if there aren’t any confirmed sightings for a certain time period the state assumes they don’t exist there. But if an animal has a large range and exists in neighboring states then it’s certainly likely they could migrate. The collar isn’t necessarily from your state. They don’t have much to gain from endangering livestock or children, so I wouldn’t assume they’re lying to you. I would keep the livestock in at night and avoid hiking in any areas they might consider home.

6

This is easier to do for those of us who have learned about it. How is the general public supposed to know when the official publications say there isn’t a problem?

And if the cat(s) are/were from nearby states (difficult to imagine this one traveled to where it did from a neighboring state without being seen/tracked), why the need to still insist there aren’t any around here (as is happening)? Wouldn’t the collared cat be known from whoever put the collar on?

7

I’m in southeastern PA and haven’t heard about mountain lion attacks … I also have a couple of horses that, weather permitting, get turned out at night. Nobody has mentioned this at our boarding facility. What part of PA are you in?

8

I lived in a community for about 10 years when a neighboring golf course was redesigned and homes (big, expensive homes) added. There was a creek and a developed walking trail separating our complex from the golf course, but the construction disturbed the wildlife and coyotes started prowling the area.

This was in the city. My kids could no longer walk to the bus stop alone. People had to be very careful getting their mail at dawn or dusk. No one believed us that there were coyotes walking through the neighborhoods until domestic animals started being mauled. It was the media that caused the city/county officials to recognize the problem, but even then they didn’t capture or relocate the animals.

9

I just had an encounter in the mountains of Maine where I came across a cat blocking a trail I was trying to pass though. The cat wouldn’t budge and hissed and snarled at me. It had sharp fangs and a really red mouth. It was laying down, and sort of hunched up, but never fully stood up so I could not judge just how big it was. But it seemed bigger than a normal cat and it was certainly “wild”. I tried to get it to move by screaming, yelling, ringing my bike bell, tossing stones near it etc. It just wouldn’t turn away, so I rode off and came back later. It was gone by then, but I kept my eyes out and just rode by as fast as I could.

When I got home I googled bobcats and that is what I saw. Looked just like it. They like to travel along side snowmobile trails in the summer, but usually hide and there are not very many sightings. There are bobcats and lynx around the area I guess, but we don’t see them too often.

I also had a Fisher cat in my yard one night a few years back, and that thing was going around and trying to eat cats and chickens.

I don’t think “cat” attacks are too common, maybe the one near you has found a food supply near you they like or it could be rabid.

10

Is a 15.3hh horse about the size of a deer? Mountain lions attack animals that are about the size of a deer. If there are mountain lions about, don’t leave foals, ponies or small horses outside at night. If you’ve got mountain lions, you probably also have coyotes, so keep the cats in at night too.

I live in mountain lion habitat. I ride my bike and hike in mountain lion habitat. I’ve seen, on separate occasions, a mountain lion cub, and an adult mountain lion. I don’t spend a second worrying about being attacked by a mountain lion, because I am orders of magnitude more likely to be attacked by a man. I hike and ride where I want to. If I were hiking with small children, I would keep them with me and not let them run ahead.

Mountain lions keep the deer population down. Plus, they are amazing, beautiful animals.

11

@houndmom This is south of Harrisburg and a fair bit north of the MD border.

I know we’re not allowed to post private blogs, but this is a local (to the area) news source that has a very small paragraph about the horse deal with a three day old photo of the haunch scratches (so not gory with blood, etc). Supposedly someone posted a picture of a cat they saw on FB, but again, I’m not on it so haven’t been able to check. I’ve heard it from multiple folks in our area though, so it should be searchable.

I don’t think it’s the same cat as the collared one. That one is apparently closer to Shippensburg.

http://www.dillsburgbanner.net/

12

A 15.3hh horse is 63 inches tall at the withers (top of shoulder) - far larger than a deer. This is why we were thinking perhaps it was a “tame” cat that had been released. It seems to us that a wild cat would go after the oodles of deer around, esp since there are plenty of fawns. A previously fed/tame cat might find it easier to go after a tamer animal.

We’re brainstorming.

13

For a while was neighbors with the very famous P22, the Griffith Park Mountain Lion. When I hiked up in Griffith Park, I did keep an eye out, always kept my cats indoors, but otherwise I think it’s great that they are still around. We’ve encroached on their territory for so long it’s heartening to see them making a come back. In fact, here in LA they are trying to built a bridge over the 101 so animals won’t be killed crossing it.

Just take precautions with your horses and try to live peacefully with the mountain lion.

14

@Creekland Thanks for link. We are not super close to your area, but I plan to mention this to barn.

This is scary. Thankfully there are no foals at our barn, but there are a couple of ponies. My guys are pretty big, but not the brightest bulbs and they are “managed” show horses so I have no idea how they would react to a predator

15

FWIW, we live with Rabies all around having just killed a very likely rabid critter this past week (third one in 2018). However our state doesn’t even pretend there’s no rabies around. They admit it’s there and give very detailed information about what to do if you think you encounter it. Vax are definitely encouraged (and required) for pets, etc.

My issue is with the state’s response and how that could potentially affect other people.

How would we feel if the state said there’s no rabies and some unsuspecting person went out to gather up that “poor injured animal doing circles” thinking they were helping it and in no danger to themselves?

Education helps folks/critters live together. Denial poses unnecessary risks.

Then with the alleged collared cat, if the state were reintroducing the cats and denying that, well, that hits a whole different ethical issue. I don’t know what to think with that one. I would prefer they say the collared cat came from ___ if that’s the case. There should be no reason for a “he said, she said” difference if there’s a picture involved. (But that picture is hearsay - just a story I’ve heard from multiple people at this point, some claiming to know the man who has/had the pic from his trailcam. That story is also a couple of years old I believe. It’s just resurfaced due to this new encounter.)

16

I live and hike in mountain lion territory too. I never worry about it. Attacks are rare. Neighbors have seen lions show up on their security cameras. I see coyotes daily. They dont bother humans. But cats and small dogs must be kept indoors.

17

Well, there’s science and there’s reality. We had mountain lions kill cattle where I lived, in semi rural VA. Everyone was on the alert for them. I wouldn’t take a chance. Naturalists speak of not just young roaming for a new teritory, but the impact droughts or other conditions can have on their wanderings. I’d wonder if the horse was an easier target, maybe not as skittish as any local deer.

Here in New England, in a metro area, we have coyotes (year 'round residents.) No one quite knows what they survive on, there’s a large wooded riverside area near me, (in the city, no less.) But it’s not remote, is used often, by teams preserving native species and by dog owners and hikers. The claim is no pets have been attacked in the neighborhoods. But I saw one, a neighborhood away from the woods/river.

Better safe than sorry.
https://www.pennlive.com/wildaboutpa/2018/01/eastern_mountain_lion_official.html

18

My limited understanding is adolescent male mountain lions can disperse astonishing distances, even into urban areas (Chicago!).

https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/Mountain-Lions-Recolonizing-in-Midwest-Researchers-Say-318161431.html

^ From the article linked above: “…Since 2002, four mountain lions have been killed in Illinois, including one who was shot in an alley in the Roscoe Village neighborhood in 2008. In all four cases, the mountain lions migrated from South Dakota or Nebraska and all of them were teenage males…”

If the big cat that was sighted is collared, that doesn’t necessarily mean it was collared in PA. And it doesn’t necessarily mean it’s being actively tracked in PA, or that the collar is even transmitting.

I was very creeped out in 2008 when people were calling in the first sightings of a mountain lion in the forest preserves in the north suburbs of Chicago. It’s hard to believe he wandered into Chicago proper, with all the deer we have in the suburbs.

19

Trying to understand, what is it you expect the state to do?

We have a problem here off Chesapeake Bay - there are invasive fish species like the snakehead fish and some new crab. There are things posted around to not throw those crabs back in the water. I’m not sure what we’re supposed to do about the snakehead, but I have seen the local fishmonger sells it and says it’s tastier than rockfish. I’ve only seen one washed up on the beach and it’s a nasty looking thing. I suspect people empty out their home aquariums and my biggest beef is that I’m guessing the big ships that come in here to come to the gas transfer stations are emptying their ballasts into our waters. They go worldwide and I’m sure all sorts of things are getting comingled around the world where they were never intended to go. Same thing with the swans, they look so pretty, they’re a menace to the wildlife.

20

Nobody is reintroducing mountain lions. They are reintroducing themselves. A mountain lion hit by a car in Connecticut had come, on its own, from South Dakota.

A lot of the mountain lions in my area are collared. That doesn’t mean they are being reintroduced; it just means scientists are interested in their behavior (and so am I). http://www.santacruzpumas.org/puma-tracker/