@voiceofreason66 Well played, sir! Well played, indeed!
Alabama is 5x the size of those Ivies. Of course they’re going to have more top students.
Well Done Chardo, You missed the point of my posts entirely. You get an “A” in Stats, but an “F” in Reading Comprehension.
^lolz!
:))
Well I didn’t go to Alabama, so maybe I’m not comprehending your point.
Chardo I didn’t go to Alabama either, but the point is rather a simple one. When you take the time to understand it, it would be great if you can post it with the data that you presented earlier. It will provide a great contrast and hopefully open the minds of many others that the way a person or ranking entity defines “elite” “top” or “quality” can have a great impact on how one perceives a schools academic merits etc.
There is in my opinion too many people who treasure getting into an Ivy or “elite” school so that they can be around top students and attend a top school which many times comes at a high cost to their families when there might be a better less costly alternative. How many times has one seen a post here on CC where kids and their families ask whether going to an “Ivy” school is worth the cost compared to going to a State Flagship at a much lower cost? It is an all too common an issue.
I only ask that students and their families research the alternatives to “elite” schools so that they can find the right “fit” for the student and their families while still getting a quality education and collegiate experience. If after their due diligence a family decides on an “elite” school education, then great, but after the same diligence, a family decides on a public flagship then great too.
CC can help lessen the prestige blow by listing such public flagships in its “Top University” list if for no other reason than to assure those that made the latter decision that they did not make a “wrong” decision. Alabama is one of many schools that when the information is looked at more carefully, the results might surprise a person as to the true value and quality of the institution.
@voiceofreason66
You do realize @Chardo has a kid at Bama, correct?
Personally, all I care about is accessibility and ease of use. To me this issue is about sheer numbers, not percentages. That’s the only reason I question the amount of “shelf space” elite LACs get here at CC, although I’m guessing it’s a marketing decision that has been made by TPTB.
CC’s primary market is those in search of elite educations, or at least it used to be. I’m guessing that much like FB’s transformation from an Ivy social networking site to one for the masses, CC’s average user profile has morphed too.
The question is, do CC’s owners care?
One who was admitted to some of those elites and still chose Bama.
Personally, as someone who attended an excellent school with tons of highly successful grads–that doesn’t even have its own thread on CC–I really don’t care what CC lists as its top universities.
Lucie I hope that CC owners care. And sheer numbers of top students are important as well as percentages. There is no denying that if a student goes to an Ivy or elite school that s/he will be attending school with top students but when schools like Alabama that do not have the reputation of the elites have such large numbers of top students, top high school seniors looking to attend a school with other top students can rest assure that schools like Alabama will have an abundant number of top students to befriend, study with, and compete to better one’s self.
Chardo kudos to you for being the parent that I would like all parents to be. But unfortunately there are way too many on CC who do care what CC lists as its top universities. Why do you think there is a “Chance” section here on CC or a separate “Ivy” section or even why schools are categorized other than by alphabetical order? It is because many care. Unfortunately, consciously or unconsciously it affects the perception of schools like Alabama on many people.
My guess for both of you and Lucie, is that if there were no other top students attending Alabama than your children, even given a full ride to attend, I would believe that neither of you would send your child to such an institution. However, given that you both are aware that many top student attend Alabama made the decision easier to send your children there. The decision became easier still when CBH, UFE, STEM to MBA etc was also benefits of going to Alabama and then throw in the great merit awards and your children are attending Alabama.
Would the inquiry into Alabama been there had either of you not known of the sheer number of top students going there via its Honors College? This is why I hope that CC powers that be look to re-evaluates what standards it requires to be placed in the CC Top University List.
Yeah, but @voiceofreason66, I had no trouble learning all I needed to about Alabama, thanks to CC. I’d like the CC directory to be easier to use, but Bama has no shortage of families able to find it right now if they’re willing to dig a little. We all found it; give folks some credit.
The “chance” threads are irrelevant to me; I never venture into those threads.
I went to a “lesser” Ivy myself, so I don’t need anyone to espouse the relative value of those schools. But if academic prestige is someone’s main priority, they’re likely never going to look at a school like Alabama. Thus, if the majority of CC users are looking for prestige, then the current CC listings for “Top” schools make a lot of sense.
I’d still like TPTB to revisit that page, especially since it’s so hard to bookmark specific schools.
Lucie It is great that there are parents like you, who know how to research and take the time to find out about schools, but for many, they have blinders and only track schools listed as Top Schools by rating entities. Having schools like Alabama in these list may open students to schools that they would never had considered otherwise.
The more students and families are made aware of schools outside the standard schools thought of elite, the more top flight kids will eschew the traditional Ivy and elite schools for schools like Alabama and other public flagships not as just safety schools but as top choice schools.
Somewhat on topic …
As a 16-year-old beginning to look at colleges, I would have held these thoughts. Picking three schools that have been analyzed in this thread:
-
Harvard: Large, and I’ve heard professors interact more with graduate students – whatever a graduate student is. Too closely associated with the orthodoxy, and I’m a zig-when-people-zag type. Plus, I want to be out in the country. So not for me.
-
Alabama: Sounds like the type of school that attracts some of the best students in Alabama, and a state is a big place. But I’m out-of-state, and an instate public university would make more sense in comparison. So not for me.
-
Harvey Mudd: A size that’s appealing, almost intriguing, as I want close interaction with professors and maybe a good chance to play sports. The really high SAT scores seem to indicate quality. Not in the country, but the suburbs may do. Didn’t really notice whether it’s in CC Top Liberal Arts Colleges or not. Look into further.
The point, and I really haven’t stated my opinion thus far, is that there’s an alternative to the type of college-selection approach that so often references which schools are elite or prestigious, or which athletic conference they are in. My hypothetical may have led me to Harvey Mudd, another’s to Alabama or Harvard. But, candidly, I cannot relate to the common tendency to position colleges above or below each other. I perhaps did this myself by posting some scores, but at the start of this thread I did feel that liberal arts colleges were being underestimated.
And why is it drawing the third largest pull of NMF behind Yale and Harvard (ok so the scholarships are awesome) but many of those students are Ivy League material and choose UA instead.
merc81 I and most have not addressed LACs because that is not the purpose of this thread. It was whether CC should reconsider how it determines what a CC Top University is and whether Alabama would be justified to be included in this list.
As to your assessment for your list of schools above, it is good that you have taken the time to assess each school to see if it fits your needs. Taking such actions is a good thing.
You should be aware that Harvey Mudd, although considered a LAC, is primary a place for STEM students and is a really small school. It is the size of medium sized senior high class. There are benefits but also draw backs. Also, HM is no safety school. It’s admit rate is one of the lowest of all LACs.
BTW Although a lot of the best students in Alabama end up going to UA, a large percentage of UA’s top students come from OOS in part because of its generous OOS Merit Scholarships and in part because of the unique programs such as CBH, UFE, STEM to MBA, UA Scholars, Emerging Scholars to name a few.
@voiceofreason66: Thank you for your considered advice. In my post, I actually went back to my mindset of when I began the process of choosing a college. I have since chosen my school. My post, as you observed, was not particular to this thread. Although perhaps it has some connection if the discussion is considered in its entirety. And reading around, some of my favorite threads are those that meandered. To reinforce my point, I searched for my college with a clean sheet of paper, without regards to what list it may have appeared on.
And the information you posted about Alabama … Good to know, I know more about the University now than I had previously.
merc81 Have you already been accepted to HM? If not, then you might be in for a rude awakening when decision time comes. One of the cornerstones of a good list of colleges is having one or two excellent safety schools to fall back on if one’s top college choices do not materialize. So if you started with a clean sheet of paper, the first on your list should have been your safety and then you can put whatever schools that you fancy.
This is the advice that I give to all my friends and family.
In my honest opinion test scores don’t mean anything in determining the value of an education. The biggest issue with American education is that the system believes they can measure the success of a student based upon the result of a monopolistic test which supposedly tests for college readiness. However many top academics have voiced concerns about such methodology and have even accused schools of using such a measure to arbitrarily rank students on a base which holds little weight as far as academic standing http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/sats/test/views.html.
So now what? How do we determine the best schools if we don’t have a reliable method of ranking top students? First off we much realize that every college has top students and individuals seeking success. We must also realize that student debt is a serious problem and secondary education has become way too expensive for the majority of middle-class Americans. That’s what makes the University of Alabama so appealing. The generous scholarships draw students with the common sense to realize that there is no need to go into debt when a top quality education can be provided for free which will get that student any job they want should they work hard at the institution. The University provides plenty of professional resources to help students succeed as well as fosters an athletic program competitive nationally across all sports, which stands for the same traditions as the academic side of the school; dignity, honor, and excellence. The school provides countless research opportunities to undergrads as well as ensures that their faculty understands the importance of trying to make every individual feel like a special member of the Alabama family who was meant to be served by the institution. The great number of out of state students provides a student body diversity incomparable to the majority of other flagships which greatly prepares students for facing the reality that not everyone they interact with in the professional world will be similar to them. Students put into their schoolwork what they want to get out of it and I can ensure you that a student graduating with a high GPA at Alabama will have as many opportunities available to them as they would like to pursue. Not to mention the very generous AP credit policies which allow students to pursue other areas outside of their primary discipline to become more well-rounded students. Policies such as these contribute towards fully developing an individual in their first 4 years away from home by providing opportunities to expand one’s horizons without having to worry about cost. Ultimately, while Alabama might not be as respected by some obstinate individuals who refuse to believe that a state can change and embrace talented individuals of all backgrounds, the school’s size and many subdivisions such as Honors College allows for one to take full advantage of the resources that come along with the University being a flagship institution while also finding a niche in which one doesn’t feel small and insignificant at all. I firmly believe that the top students at this school could go toe to toe with any Ivy League student in a grad school and professional setting and can assure you that Alabama should be considered a top school simply because of all the opportunities it provides. While I understand that some individuals obsess over fallible and arbitrary rankings, I choose to look at the people at an institution. There are many great schools out there and I have no doubt Alabama is just as good as any one of them. Plus the cost is a pretty nice cherry on top in today’s economy.
As a Dad who will have a DS entering the Fall 2015 class, I have to say to @DaDobester “you absolutely nailed it!” The Presidential scholarship, HC, STEM MBA, were opportunities too great to pass. It didn’t hurt that he also fell in love with the campus and school spirit. I have read hundreds of post on this great CC board and @DaDobester in one post created the definitive summary of why an Ivy League caliber student would not only consider the University of Alabama but also decide to enroll at this incredible institution. I think I am going to print out your post and keep it for reference the next four years!
It’s the ROI baby! Including intangibles!