DaDobester While I agree with much of what you have stated, you do realize that in order to qualify for the Generous Merit Scholarships at the University of Alabama that one needs to score very high on the SAT/ACT. In fact, UA values high scorers over lower scorers as dictated by the amount of merit money one can receive based upon standardized test scores.
High scoring students are generally considered high achieving students and whatever you may think about standardized tests, I would prefer that my child attend a school that has good number of high achieving students who can challenge him. For me that is a part of determining the value of an education.
If UA had all the aspects stated by ProudPapaBear but all of its students consisted of those that scored below the 50% percentile on the ACT/SAT, I would not send my son to such an institution. Because I do not believe he would be challenged. But because UA as outlined in my prior posts has a very significant number of high achieving/scoring students and with all the opportunities outlined by ProudPapa it was a rather easy decision for my son to attend Alabama over Cornell.
There is a reason why ALL the top colleges use SAT/ACT in the admission process and why generally the top scorers get accepted.
As person who did very well on his standardized tests, I can assure you it has no use or application in the real academic setting. Sorry for disagreeing with you here, but while I think they’re good as scholarship baselines in which students have a goal to work towards and are rewarded for working hard to achieve that goal, they serve as a very poor measurement for the academic prestige of a university. What I was trying to say is that there needs to be a paradigm shift in the collegiate ranking system towards rewarding colleges who provide a diverse environment with many opportunities to succeed after college. The who sat ranking system makes individuals believe that Chemistry at Ohio State is harder than Chemistry at Alabama, when in reality that’s simply not the case. Students need to be taught to go to the school which is the best fit for them financially and environmentally because if the status quo is upheld student loan debts are only going to increase and students won’t pick their favorite college, but rather one which had a different number on a paper than another one. Idk, just my two cents
DaDobester So are you saying that there is no difference between a student who has a 4.0 GPA and 5 ACT vs a student with 4.0 GPA and 35 ACT in academic ability? I think you are in the minority to believe that.
And why would you think that standardized tests are a “good as scholarship baselines in which students have a goal to work towards and are rewarded for working hard to achieve that goal” but think that “they serve as a very poor measurement for the academic prestige of a university”? This appears to be contradictory.
Would Harvard be considered prestigious if all of its students were in the bottom 1% of test takers rather than the top 1%? I doubt that any person would believe Harvard’s prestige would not take a serious hit if that were the level of students that went there.
Where I do agree with you is in how ranking systems tend to make individuals believe that “Chemistry at Ohio State is harder than Chemistry at Alabama, when in reality that’s simply not the case.” Which is why I believe that CC should rethink who gets into CC Top Universities List as well as what factors should be used to arrive at that decision.
It is clear that I believe that SAT/ACT scores have its usefulness in that calculation but not in the way it is currently used, and you believe that it should not be a factor at all.
Voice and DaDobester I think you are both correct. But one of you is addressing the only measure really available before moving into a college setting - thus, how a college is going to judge its incoming class base – versus the actual product the college will ultimately produce. The latter is useful for a student in deciding which college fits the bill. The literal bill.
All I was saying is that too much emphasis is put on tests rather than professional preparation. Since the board was attempting to discuss why Alabama should be considered a top school, I was trying to explain why test scores aren’t the number 1 indicator of a school’s ability to prepare individuals for a career. While the school does not have as high scores as other top schools, I was trying to explain above why that should not automatically discount the level of the institution, especially when Bama has some aspects which make it a perfect fit for students wishing to make the most of their potential. I hope there becomes some other method which can replace the sat in determining the level of students applying for college, but until then I would encourage high school students to figure out the system to benefit them.
DaDobester I agree with your latest post which is why I tried to provide a different perspective of what it means to be a “Top university” as it relates to standardized testing as well as other factors that others on this thread have pointed out.
However, for me, the single greatest factor in determining the quality of an institution is the quality of its students. I just happen to think that if a university has a critical mass of top achieving students attending it that the university should be considered as a part of any list of top universities even if its average student might be lower than the currently designated “elite schools”.
As to your wish that there should be “some other method which can replace the SAT/(ACT) in determining the level of students” is something that many people can relate to and I fall in that category, but otherwise difficult to do. There are people who want high school GPA to be the standard, but as most of us know, all high school GPAs are not equal. A student who goes to a rigorous academic school who takes advanced calculus and earns a 3.0 GPA may be better student academically than a student who goes to a less rigorous school who earns a 4.0 GPA and only took basic algebra.
Currently the SAT/ACT are the only uniform tests that allow universities to compare one student against another. These standardized test plus a student’s high school GPA are the best gauge to determine the strengths of a student until something better comes along. I have ideas for that but that is for another thread.
Reading this thread, the thought that comes to mind the most is the vagueness of “top university.” Who is providing the definition and what is their rationale? It could go any number of ways.
Where The University of Alabama excels over other schools which attract a lot of top students is the overall financial package. Scholarships are not based on income or the subjective opinion of admissions and financial aid officers. UA is not using a very holistic admissions for top students; one simply needs to have the required grades and test scores and not have too many red flags popping up and one is guaranteed admission and a large scholarship. This benefits students who might not have the perfect well-rounded application or whose families don’t have income which is structured in a way that the generous financial aid packages of many “top schools” award generous amounts of financial aid. If a family can come up with around $15,000 per year (often less), the student can have a very comfortable lifestyle when combining that money with a Presidential scholarship. Compare that to a $20,000 per year scholarship to an Ivy League school. A family might need to spend over twice the money just so the student could attend and afford the essentials. Even attending the flagship university in ones home state can easily cost more than $15,000 per year, especially if that university does not award many merit scholarships.
I do believe that students who choose UA are benefiting from information asymmetry. UA is not as well known as many of the schools listed as top universities on CC. If one looks at the threads on UA’s CC forum, it’s not easy to get students from other parts of the country to consider a school located in the Heart of Dixie, especially when they hear it’s a 65 minute drive down a mostly rural freeway from the regional airport to campus. For those students who do look into and decide to attend UA, they’re getting a very good deal, even at full price, for a university which offers most anything a student could want. This is why many, if not most OOS students at UA do not have the large scholarships. One can get an excellent college experience at UA for a more reasonable cost than many other colleges or universities.
I agree with your entire post @SEA_tide, but I do want to clarify one thing. Ivies do not offer scholarships, not even for athletes. All grants are need based.
Our family fits that definition to a T. When we ran the net price calculator for my alma mater, the University of Pennsylvania, the EFC was about $27,000 a year. That’s still a bargain for a lot of families, but that $48,000 difference between the two schools after four years is a big chunk of change for our family. For others it might just mean keeping the old Chevy Suburban for another four year and be no big deal.
@SEA_tide brought up the issue of information asymmetry. It appears that CC lacks significant influence in this area. For example, when you look at the student demographics of a northern LAC, you will find that the freshman class has perhaps an average of one or fewer students from Alabama. Statistically speaking, this is an anomaly. Certainly, if all Alabama high school students were fully informed about a given northern LAC, more than one would find the possibility attractive. And the opportunity to attend, at least as things now stand, is enhanced because an Alabaman’s application would be boosted in the interest of diversity.
Sea_tide Actually UA is more well known than most all the other schools listed as Top Universities on CC. The problem is that Alabama is known for its football and not its academics and the quality of its students. That is why I posted the number of top students with ACT 30+ as a comparison with other schools.
Imagine if Nick Saban during an interview on ESPN stated that in addition to Bama being a title contender next season, he also stated that Bama had more top students than Stanford, Harvard, Yale and academically was as strong nationally as its football team. If he invited the students listening to check out the special programs for top students by going to Bama website, admit rates would plummet and the level of Bama’s academic prestige would skyrocket.