<p>Most discussions I have heard say Spielberg was full of it.</p>
<p><a href=“http://today.reuters.com/news/NewsArticle.aspx?type=lifeAndLeisureNews&storyID=uri:2005-12-28T133343Z_01_EIC848718_RTRUKOC_0_US-LEISURE-SPIELBERG-SPOOKS.xml&pageNumber=0&summit=[/url]”>http://today.reuters.com/news/NewsArticle.aspx?type=lifeAndLeisureNews&storyID=uri:2005-12-28T133343Z_01_EIC848718_RTRUKOC_0_US-LEISURE-SPIELBERG-SPOOKS.xml&pageNumber=0&summit=</a></p>
<p>I thought the movie was absurdly unbalanced, with Israelis stressing about “deep ethical questions” as they went about their deadly business, but Palestinians of course having no ethical qualms whatsoever. </p>
<p>But then, what would you expect? Palestinians aren’t really people, are they?</p>
<p>only when they leave the ghetto w/ bombs strapped to their bodies and kill others…then we call them deranged people.</p>
<p>“But then, what would you expect? Palestinians aren’t really people, are they?”</p>
<p>Ah, so the conversation with son #2 about rampant PC behavior on campus is born out even on CC…once again…</p>
<p>The son grew up in a country which is 85% Moslem and fortunately is capable of a sensitive and broad discussion on this and other topics, but finds he often keeps his thoughts to himself at school at this point in the face of these sorts of perspectives…He is getting the lay of the land, and I am sure will feel ready to engage once he knows how the ‘PC’ game rules really work…</p>
<p>Haven’t seen the movie here- it will no doubt not be released if it portrays the Palestinians in the least unfavorable light. Spielberg is a commercial film producer, not a news network or even a documentary producer. He probably can afford the best research possible, but his work will always be informed by his political perspective, won’t it.</p>
<p>“only when they leave the ghetto w/ bombs strapped to their bodies and kill others…then we call them deranged people.”</p>
<p>The Israelis in the movie strap the bombs to tv sets and telephones and mattresses, and then are “conflicted” about it. That makes them “more noble”.</p>
<p>mini: </p>
<p>You’re showing your true colors here. I haven’t searched your posts - do you believe that we’re in Iraq to help the Israelis? or the Jews? And do you really think there is moral equivalency between blowing up schoolbuses full of children and going after cold-blooded murderers? Do you believe that Hamas and Hezbollah would be happy if Israel unilaterally pulled back to their pre-1967 borders? Would they leave the Israelis alone?</p>
<p>I assume you also support the Palestinian “right of return” - a death sentence for Israel. Do you know that a majority of Israelis are emigres who were “lucky” enough to get thrown out of Arab countries - I say lucky because many of their brethren were killed. </p>
<p>I was very glad to see your posts - because now I know who and what you are. You operate under the flag of Anti-Zionism but I know what you are.</p>
<p>No - I simply assume, based on actual experience, that Palestinians are caught in the very same nexus of events and conditions that the Israelis are. Faced with a lack of $2 billion a year in military assistance and the training to use the weapons so supplied, SOME Palestinians use the weapons they find at their disposal. And yes, I believe there is full moral equivalency between blowing up schoolbuses full of children, and bombing refugee camps full of children, which is to say, no moral legitimacy. </p>
<p>But my experience of Palestinians is that they are equally conflicted about using the weapons at their disposal as Israelis are. Some of them very much so. And some of them, and the same can be said of some Israelis, not very much - it’s just war.</p>
<p>Not sure how Iraq got in here. I believe the U.S. is in Iraq for the same reason Paul Wolfowitz said we are: to secure forward military bases outside of Saudi Arabia, to secure the long-term supply of oil, and to overthrow Saddam Hussein. Same goals that Bill Clinton had, but we are in Iraq because Clinton’s policy of killing children (528,000 in all - “It was worth it,” said his Secretary of State) didn’t succeed in accomplishing the objectives.</p>
<p>Mini: </p>
<p>Again, thanks! You’re making things even clearer. Yeah - the Israeli Defense Force policy is to bomb children. And the terrorist killers don’t hide in and build bombs in refugee camps. Boy, you’re so smart. And you have such good sources of information. The Israelis should just lay down their arms, open the gates and trust their lives and future to the United Nations. </p>
<p>Sorry you didn’t answer my questions re: right of return and pre-1967 borders but I’m pretty sure now I know what you’d say. </p>
<p>And I can only assume that you posit a moral equivalency or, to be fancy, a moral illegitimacy for both the U.S. forces and the insurgents in Iraq.</p>
<p>It’s a real shame our young men and women in the military have to defend everyone - maybe we could carve out some no-defense zones and you wouldn’t have to pay that portion of your taxes for defense. Hamas could run candidates for City Council in Olympia.</p>
<p>Your constant refrain about Clinton killing xxxxxx children in Iraq is as tiresome as it is inaccurate. This whole story is reaching Urban Legend status and I don’t even like Clinton. For a more factual account:</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.reason.com/0203/fe.mw.the.shtml[/url]”>http://www.reason.com/0203/fe.mw.the.shtml</a></p>
<p>I have no idea why you would want to deny what the Secretary of State was so ready to admit:</p>
<p>Lesley Stahl on U.S. sanctions against Iraq: We have heard that a half million children have died. I mean, that’s more children than died in Hiroshima. And, you know, is the price worth it?</p>
<p>Secretary of State Madeleine Albright: I think this is a very hard choice, but the price–we think the price is worth it.</p>
<p>–60 Minutes (5/12/96)</p>
<p>I know of course that you were no fan of “Oil for Food”, but have you ever asked yourself how we got there (in 1997)? I would think the person who helped oversee the initiation of the program on the ground (and then resigned) would know what he saw:</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.zmag.org/edwinthalliday.htm[/url]”>http://www.zmag.org/edwinthalliday.htm</a></p>
<p>But as the Reason piece points out, the overwhelming majority of those deaths took place before Oil for Food, and the international outcry that forced the Clinton Administration to back down.</p>
<p>Prior to Oil for Food, chlorine and other water purification chemicals were banned under ‘dual use’ considerations. As a result children died of what should have been treatable diseases: simple diarrhoea, typhoid, dysentery and other water-borne illnesses. Medical equipment like incubators, X-ray machines, and heart and lung machines were banned. The U.S. consistently blocked vaccines, analgesics and chemotherapy drugs, claiming they could be converted into chemical or biological weapons. Problems with transportation and refrigeration meant that even drugs that are allowed - like antibiotics - could arrive only intermittently. Children with leukaemia, who can be saved with a full course of antibiotics, died, because one dose is missing.</p>
<p>But, to cite the UNICEF source from the Reason article:</p>
<p>The other, far more credible source of the 500,000 number is a pair of 1999 UNICEF studies that estimated the under-5 mortality rates of both Iraqi regions based on interviews with a total of 40,000 households. “If the substantial reduction in the under-five mortality rate during the 1980s had continued through the 1990s,” the report concluded, “there would have been half a million fewer deaths of children under-five in the country as a whole during the eight year period 1991 to 1998.” If the expected mortality rate had stayed level rather than continuing its downward slope, the excess death number would be more like 420,000. </p>
<p>But that’s just for the under-5s. You do the math.</p>
<p>Here is the UNICEF press release itself from 1999:</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.unicef.org/newsline/99pr29.htm[/url]”>http://www.unicef.org/newsline/99pr29.htm</a></p>
<p>You’ll note, however, that they make no distinction between the death rates 1997-1999 under Oil for Food, and the 1994-1996 rates during the genocide era, which were significantly higher.</p>
<p>Of course, let’s rely on UNICEF for our information. Even if there was a modicum of truth in the release, all please note that most of the deaths were taking place in predominately Shiite regions. Hmmm, just coincidence - or was that also our fault. </p>
<p>Here’s a little note about UNICEF and the balanced role they play in the Middle East. </p>
<p>["Every year, the Palestinian Authority organizes summer camps for thousands of children, frequently in cooperation with UNICEF and UNRWA. These camps are named after homicide bombers such as Wafa Idris. Their programs, which are known to contain weapons training and inflammatory anti-Israel materials are unlikely to meet the standards employed by UNESCO, another United Nations expert body</p>
<p>
During 9/11, the Palestinian people celebrated in the streets to cheer the deaths of several thousand Americans. But they did not let their celebrations distract them. They quickly resumed sending suicide bombers into Israeli markets to kill as many women and children as they could. So, Mini, what kind of people are they? Your kind?</p>
<p>It’s always a mistake to think that one group of people is inherently better than another group. We Americans do it a lot. We do it to Israelis, perhaps out of guilt at not doing something to prevent the Holocaust. We do it to ourselves, thinking that because we’re Americans we are exceptional.</p>
<p>SuNa: </p>
<p>You’re starting to sound like Jimmy Carter during some of his fireside chats - we’re on the decline and we’d better get used to it. The Declaration of Independence and the Constitution of the United States have been shining beacons to the rest of the world for over two centuries. We had to overcome slavery, and we did. At the cost of hundreds of thousands of lives of Northerners who fought for the Union AND for the rights of their fellow human beings. We are constantly moving towards those beacons. And who does the world come to when they need help. Who was there after the Tsunami? Who’s there after the earthquake in Pakistan? Which country is trusted to do the job that needs to be done and then leave - often with little thanks? The Germans? The French? The Palestinians??? Hmmm, I wonder if there’s a reason that millions of Mexicans, and Guatemalans, and Hondurans, et.al. will cross deserts to get here. And the Cuban paradise - hmmm, I don’t see a lot of boats leaving Miami for Havana. Only Europeans and Canadians taking advantage of Cuba for a cheap vacation while ignoring the THOUSANDS of political prisoners in Castro’s prisons. You and Mini will hate to hear this but we are exceptional. Get out of the way of those who recognize it. John F. Kennedy knew it: </p>
<p>"In the long history of the world, only a few generations have been granted the role of defending freedom in its hour of maximum danger. I do not shank from this responsibility - I welcome it. I do not believe that any of us would exchange places with any other people or any other generation. The energy, the faith, the devotion which we bring to this endeavour will light our country and all who serve it – and the glow from that fire can truly light the world. </p>
<p>And so, my fellow Americans: ask not what your country can do for you - ask what you can do for your country. </p>
<p>My fellow citizens of the world: ask not what America will do for you, but what together we can do for the freedom of man.</p>
<p>I have heard there are many incosistencies and inaccuracies in the movies from people who were involved. Add me to that list - I was in Munich during the Olympics and my Dad knew the father fo one fo the athletes. So, we went to Olympic Village to try and see him. The Village had a high chainlink fence all around it with armed soldiers patrolling inside it every 50 feet or so,and in order to get in you had to go through security in a trailer.<br>
And although the athlete we wanted to see was not there, (they called up to his room) and we weren’t able to get in, we saw the situation with visitors. The only people not searched were the athletes and officials with badges. No way did any drunk Americans help the terrorists hop the fence - there were soldiers all inside the fence, day and night. To this day, I believe that athletes carried in the weapons in their equipment bags and the terrorists came in as “visitors.” It was a terrible time, and I wish the story had been told accurately.</p>
<p>Fascinating, evitajr1.
I live in the eponymous city, and not so long ago I was at Olympia Park looking for any memorial of the tragedy. Didn’t find one (or did I miss it somehow?). Olympia Park is a thriving recreational area, hosts many events. I wondered if I was alone in feeling that is somehow ghastly.</p>
<p>Maybe this movie 30+ years later will provoke the locals to finally build a memorial to the murdered Israeli team. </p>
<p>One of the ironies of that time (correct me if I’m misremembering it) was that Mark Spitz, the champion swimmer that was reviled for accepting promotion deals (my, how the world has changed), donated his 7 gold medals to Israel.</p>
<p>AnudduhMom
P.S. Dachau is hot real estate now. Expensive homes overlook the concentration camp. Kids wave at you from the windows of their Bavarian chalets as you walk the grounds. See it to believe it.</p>
<p>It took the Germans over 50 years to build a Holocaust memorial in Berlin. So no surprise re: Olympia Park. The Germans did, to their full credit, take full responsiblity for their actions under the Nazis, do a good job of teaching about the War, paid reparations, etc. Would that the Japanese had done the same.</p>
<p>What’s disturbing on this message thread is mini’s moral equivalency of Israeli actions to protect themselves on a tiny sliver of land smaller than the State of New Jersey with the actions of Islamofascist terrorists who will blow up schoolchildren, thrown men in wheelchairs off of cruise ships, shot airline passengers ad nauseum. Israel is no longer the only target - the world didn’t care when it was and they had to defend themselves. Now we are all targets of people who would think NOTHING of detonating nuclear weapons in any or all of our cities in the service of their sick ideology.</p>
<p>Been to Dachau. Knew a priest who was there when it was liberated. He told a story that still chills me to this day. Although Jews were the largest single group targetted by Hitler, priests, nuns, the intelligentsia and gypsies were also targets. The day of liberation, American soldiers came in, opened the gates and went around and told the people they were free. One man who spoke English went to them and told them that they needed food, clothing and medicine. The soldier in charge told him that his orders were merely to liberate, and they had no supplies, but they stayed for a bit. During this time, the priest said that they should do a Mass of Thanksgiving. So they rigged up a makeshift altar and found some black paint and an artist there painted the Madonna for the altar, all under the watchful eyes of the American Army. They did the Mass and tended to the people who couldn’t fend for themselves, and the soldiers left. The inmates milled around, not knowing what to do, except helping those who needed it. A while later, an American convoy came with the liberation soldiers at the head. They brought medicine, food and clothing. The soldier in charge said that any “people that prayed to a black Madonna deserved help.” Apparently they “borrowed” the supplies. To this day, that priest believes that the Madonna saved their lives. I wish I could tell this story as well as he did. It was part of his sermon, and there wasn’t a dry eye in the place. BTW, we lost an uncle (priest) in Dachau.</p>
<p>of course a lot wasn’t shown, but for a mvie it was reasonable… i have bene to israel every year of my life…and soem of the worst information is never shown…there have been cases where even palestinian children will take the intestines of those they kill and wave it around in the air in a victory celebration…i have met very nice palestininans too but even they admit that the majority share the sentiment of hapiness when they kill israelis, when something bads happens to America, or when something happens to the jews…</p>