Music minor and dual degrees issues

College Majors Music Majors
41

<p>“It sounds like you want the music degree a lot more than he does.”</p>

<p>That’s a complete and snarky guess. You should see his musical resume. He is the one studying Mahler scores and listening to Mahler symphonies while we drive to his chamber music class where he is currently playing the Arensky Trio. He is the one who loves to be the rehearsal pianist for his school’s musicals. He is the one who went out of his comfort zone and added concert choir in his senior year and will be auditioning for all-state today. He is the one who wrote and is playing music for Antigone, a play his school is doing this weekend.</p>

<p>The problem is actually the other way around. Everyone tells him that he cannot make a career in music as if all he wants to do is to become a touring concert pianist. This is especially true if the student shows any signs of ability in other academic areas. The problem is that it’s too easy to close musical doors. I’m trying to counteract that input. If I was pushing him into music, he would be applying to a conservatory or SOM. Now that he will not be applying for the Michigan dual degree, the problem of closing musical doors becomes even more of a problem.</p>

<p>Underlying a lot of discussions of education is a conflict between nature and nurture. There is a fine line between pushing and mentoring. There is also a difference between passion and initiative. Some think that if a student has the appropriate passion for a subject, then initiative will automatically follow; that one will be a success simply because of that passion. I completely disagree with this. My son has passion for lots of things, but that doesn’t mean that he has the knowledge or experience to ensure success in any of those areas. As a parent, I have to do a lot of work to show him the different possibilities in each area. Should he be the one to get on CC and ask all of these questions? If he doesn’t, does that mean that he doesn’t have the proper passion for the subject or that the parent is pushing? Too many have this sort of passion litmus test. They feel that if one has the appropriate passion, then they will do anything to get the job done. In other words, if they don’t get the job done, then they don’t have the appropriate passion. I call it the passion trap. It’s also an excuse for bad teaching. </p>

<p>Don’t get me started on how much help I had to give him in math in K-8.</p>

<p>So, are mentors and good teachers not important? Do they just teach skills and musicality? Do they not push? Does the need for pushing imply a lack of passion? We’re back on the Tiger Mom issue (which was really about something else). My son’s piano teacher taught him very well in the area of skills and musicality. He did not, however, push him to learn the skills of recording flawless performances. Was my son supposed to figure out how important this skill is for opportunities all by himself? He had to. He has a flawless attitude about performing, but those skills don’t translate very well to recording skills.</p>

<p>I’ve had to deal with the helicopter parent epithet since my son was little. Teachers love to use it as a way to control parents. While there are many real cases of parents pushing against their kids’ wills, The ploy is often used indiscriminately.</p>

42

<p>"I would have him apply now and prep for auditions to be on the safe side – the deadline is Dec. 1 but usually the auditions aren’t until Jan-Feb. He could always cancel. "</p>

<p>If I was pushing, that’s what I would have him do. I’m on the edge, but probably won’t do it. One of the problems in applying to lots of colleges is that students really don’t like to analyze “Plan B” before “Plan A” falls through. I found it interesting that he apparently told the MIT interviewer (in a two hour interview) that he really loves the idea of conducting. When he played a solo performance in front of an audience of 3500+ this summer, he said that it was one of the best experiences of his life. Then he gets random people telling him that he can always do music on the side. This is sooo annoying. People think that some sort of STEM career and good pay is the key to a happy life.</p>

43

<p>Clarimom said:</p>

<p>“In his dream career world, he would like to be able to still pursue both passions, …”</p>

<p>As an engineer/software developer, I would say that one has fewer options for this. Most software development companies want you 24/7 almost. I can tell you about jobs where I was working 70 hour weeks for months on end (for no extra money, of course). I had this dream where I would go to a company and tell them that they could “own” me, but I wanted summers off. Bwa ha ha ha! My brother, however, was a contract employee for EMC and others and arranged things so that he had a number of weeks off in the summer to go to different adult music camps. He had his own string quartet that played at night. However, I think you have to work hard on the music part if you want to stay at a very high level. It’s difficult to do.</p>

<p>For my son, it’s more about keeping doors open to see which one will win out. He knows that he will always do both, but how that will work out remains to be seen.</p>

44

<p>CompMom says:</p>

<p>"…he just has to point north, south, east or west, so to speak, and let the journey flow. It seems very likely to work out really well."</p>

<p>That’s what everyone who meets him says, but I’m just a detailed-oriented, paranoid parent. I know that there are key things I’ve done in the past that have opened up doors for him. However, I have been trying to get him to take over. I’ve told him many times that even if he gets into a fancy pants college, it’s still up to him. He has to take charge. He has to recognize good people and opportunities when he sees them. Sometimes it’s best to follow your own vision and sometimes it’s best to follow a mentor. I wish I had more help with this when I was in college. Some of my best opportunities resulted from dumb luck. But being in a good place can help this.</p>

45

<p>Momof2TeenGirls said:</p>

<p>“Pianoparent - will your son have much AP credit? That may help keep the timeline down for dual degrees at colleges that are liberal with accepting APs”</p>

<p>He will have had 8, the most that anyone can schedule at his school. It sounds like one can use AP classes to reduce the timeline and number of required credits (150, if I recall for the Dual Degree). I will suggest again that he keep that option open, but time is flying and we were told that scholarship money (in math) runs out early.</p>

46

<p>PianoParent, Thank you for what you wrote about passion vs. initiative. You have put something in words for me that I was never very good about articulating myself though it really applies to my S. My S is now a Jr. at UM pursuing a dual degree in Cello performance and Math. Passion in music was never an issue for him, he embodies music in a way that is so amazing to see. Much like your son he will study scores for music he is performing, etc. At times I had concerns about his initiative as you stated with your S and this IS distinct from passion. I struggled with the same issues of pushing vs. supporting and helping him navigate logistics that he didn’t seem to have a knack for. I think a lot of this was a maturity issue as I have seen the initiative really kick in since about his 2nd term of his freshman year in college. I have seen so much growth and now he is really independent and navigating everything on his own. I have much less anxiety now about the future, whether he makes it in music remains to be seen, but I can really see it happening now and think he will be able to make the most of the opportunities that come his way as well as creating and pursuing opportunities down the road. Thanks for your well articulated thoughts!</p>

47

<p>Just for perspective: my daughter was 49/51% on her final choice. She decided on April 30th between conservatory, college, and double degree. I am glad she kept the options open and when she got in, was able to fully explore both. </p>

<p>She has significant health problems that prevented her from doing much of anything beyond surviving, for two years of college. She has made up for that in the last three, at least, made up for it enough.</p>

<p>The growth we see, and the maturity, by the end of college is clearer if we look back. It happens. We cannot get in the way if we tried! (Even kids who have disasters along the way develop and change and recoup, and that is not an issue for any students on this thread>)</p>

<p>(My daughter hid in the bathroom when her pieces were played at the end of high school. Now, she writes program notes and goes up on stage and gets grants etc.etc. Still working on it, but time has helped a lot.)</p>

48

<p>PP - AP credits tend to be most useful at state schools (I guess it’s to their advantage to get the students out of the door as fast as possible.) The more elite private colleges tend to only allow AP credits for elective credit - which certainly can help, but not to the immense extent as at a university like UC Berkeley etc. Also, many private elite colleges only accept 5’s for any credit at all. (No idea about your son’s, of course :slight_smile: ) I know when my son was looking at MIT at the time they didn’t accept any AP credit at all…</p>

49

<p>PianoParent, yes, it will always be interesting to see how it will all work out–S does understand the engineering/software developer world quite well. He did an internship for a major software corporation over the summer, while keeping up his practicing every evening and weekend preparing for grad school auditions. He felt he made great progress. At the end of the summer, he was offered a position in the company when he graduates. However…he turned down the offer so that he can pursue a graduate degree in music. Kind of a scary thing to do…</p>

<p>He has computer projects he does independently that he will continue to pursue–he has been very involved in this since a young age and has had successes. He feels there are other avenues for him other than working for corporations or companies and I know he will continue to explore and grow in that passion as well as in music. I can’t imagine him not doing both. But all we can do as parents is hope for all the best for our kids, and sit back and see what happens. I’m glad he doesn’t ask for much advice when he makes his decisions–I’m not sure how I would even answer.</p>

50

<p>"I know when my son was looking at MIT at the time they didn’t accept any AP credit at all… "</p>

<p>I don’t know about other subjects, but MIT (now?) offers advanced placement if you get a 5 (or 4?) in AP Calc BC. Our school only offers AB, which he did last year, so he is doing BC as an independent study now in his senior year. My general rule is that you don’t use AP for your major area of study because the colleges courses are generally much harder. However, we bought the Apostal books for math that they use so he is studying them.</p>

51

<p>A lot of students with 5’s still take the intro courses. Every college is different, and it is good to get in on the ground floor. But also, I have heard many say that freshman year is stressful enough and they like to take math or physics or whatever over again to keep stress down while they adjust. </p>

<p>Now, if a student is trying to do a nearly impossible double major, that is a different story. It can be done, and using AP credits will help. It can be a recipe for stress and burnout but for some, in some schools, it does work.</p>

52

<p>CelloMom2 said:</p>

<p>“At times I had concerns about his initiative as you stated with your S and this IS distinct from passion.”</p>

<p>My son has good initiative, but his drive is based on what he wants to do, not based on what will help him fit into a larger world, where opportunities are limited and competition from peers will be greater. Colleges like to see these sorts of students and not just robots looking for more bullets to add to their resumes. Once students get to college, however, they have to direct that initiative into specific and constructive directions; students cannot just follow their own internal passions - unless, that is, they understand the risks. Having a good mentor and knowing what are good opportunities are important. Also, my son has to be able to turn down more requests to accompany to give him time for his own agenda. That’s a big trap for pianists. I remember fending off a number of professors who wanted to use me for my programming skills. There is also the difficulty of knowing when to set off in your own direction and when to see an opportunity that might take you off in another direction. I wish I had more mentoring help with that when I was in college.</p>

<p>I can see my parental job tapering off and coming to an end before long. The college transition phase is stressful for all, but once all applications are in, I think things will change and our mindset will shift gears. Ultimately, it will be up to him, but he has to see and go after good opportunities and be able to define and control his own agenda.</p>

53

<p>Hi PianoParent - I have a sophomore at a prestigious music/academic university. He is pursing music performance and physics/astrophysics in a five-year dual degree program. He applied to and was accepted at many of the top programs in his area of music. It was a tough choice, so we had him re-visit his top two schools and follow some dual degree students for a day.</p>

<p>As has been posted, there is a bit of “lip service” at some schools, depending on the studio. Some schools promote their dual degree programs, but we found that individual professors may or may not support the students. One very well-known professor, in my son’s area of interest, told him he “prefers not to take on” dual degree students and will only do so under “certain circumstances.” This was after we had attended an information session, with the dean of the school of music, who told us all about how supportive they are of dual degree students. Another professor asked my son, at the audition, if there was any way he’d consider being a “music-only” student. My son isn’t pursing two degrees to have a back-up to music. He’s pursuing two degrees because he honestly loves both fields of study. </p>

<p>We did not find Harvard to be very supportive of the kids at NEC. They told us that the advisers for each school work independently of each other and do not collaborate. After spending time at Peabody and Eastman, we felt that the travel time between the various campuses would be too much and too frequent. The UMich campus is workable, but my son wanted a prestigious school that is walkable/bikeable. Most days my son has class from 9 am - 2 pm with ensemble rehearsals from 2-8 pm or later. He goes from music history to math to keyboard skills to physics to gen ed all in the course of a few hours. He was told that it would be possible to have “academics” in the morning and music in the afternoon, but the academic classes also include music theory, aural skills, music history, etc., so he is all over campus all day long. After 8 pm he has additional studio classes, guest instructors (who teach at night), additional small ensembles or pit orchestras, etc. These same scheduling issues occurred at some of the other top schools as well. </p>

<p>My reason for telling you all of this is because the shuttle situation at some of the schools is really more of an issue that we thought it would be. It’s hard enough to be on a walkable, self-contained campus. I think the non-science majors may have it a bit easier, but scheduling has been hectic for my son. Even getting to office hours has been difficult, as those are often scheduled at times when the music students have rehearsals. </p>

<p>That being said, really check the AP policy at the various schools as well. My son had one 3, two 4’s and nine 5’s on AP exams. He dual enrolled in math since sophomore year of high school, so he came in with college credit there too. Very few top schools will accept unlimited AP credit, and some will only allow two courses or up to “x” number of credits. </p>

<p>In my son’s particular music studio, no music minors take lessons from the professors. They all take lessons from grad students. This was the case at several schools we visited. A few students mentioned that being in a large, urban area was helpful for that reason. Music minors were taking lessons with professionals from the local symphony orchestras. Check which ensembles include non-majors/minors also. Some ensembles are only open to music majors. </p>

<p>It is worth noting that my son received significant merit money from all of his schools. Even the schools that don’t offer merit money for academics found a way to give him grants that far exceeded anything our FAFSA said we should get. My son was very fortunate to get offers for both academics and music. It sounds like your son may be able to get some of those as well, significantly decreasing the cost for a five-year program.</p>

<p>It seems like we were just going through these same decisions with our son, but it’s already been two years. It goes so quickly. You’re asking great questions. Good luck!</p>

54

<p>Thanks PercMom. (My guess is that he’s at Rice/Shepherd.) Everyone tells us to include that on my son’s list, but it’s hard for a New Englander to get excited about Houston. Then again, it was in the teens and blowing hard last night around here.</p>

<p>We’ve noted the transportation/separation issue. UMich is workable (having taken the bus to North Campus while I was there), but it’s a pain if you have to go back and forth in the middle of the day.</p>

<p>It still looks like my son does not want to commit to a 5-year dual program even if there is a good exit strategy. That might rule out a college with a SOM, but not necessarily Yale. This puts the pressure on finding a good private lesson teacher inside or outside of the college. We will have to wait to see what schools he gets accepted to and then hope to make one of them work. Boston has a big pull for him and we might be able to make some connections to a good teacher.</p>

<p>"… my son received significant merit money from all of his schools."</p>

<p>Was this in music, physics, or both? I think the only school that my son will be applying to that offers a merit scholarship is UofM (for math), but my understanding is that state schools are not very good with money to out-of-staters. I think that some of the big research universities are struggling with this. The other (low probability) schools that he will be applying to state clearly that all aid is merit-based. Then again, some of those schools give all grant-based aid. Did your son apply for extra grant aid or did they just offer it? Was it an Early Action school or a Regular one?</p>

55

<p>PianoParent - Rice is not known for being supportive of double degrees - so that would be very interesting if that’s where PercMom’s son is. (And PercMom it’s been ages since you’ve checked in with us. Please keep us up to date on your son’s progress.) A university where many have pursued double degrees, where the campus is walkable, is Northwestern. Vanderbilt also supports double degree students. However, if your son really is resistant to a double degree I would not push him that way at all. He’ll do just fine with a double major, or private lessons.</p>

56

<p>SpiritManager - Thanks. I’m not trying to be secretive. I just don’t post too much identifying information since my son is in a very small studio at his school. </p>

<p>PianoParent - My son received merit aid in both music and academics from the schools that offer scholarships in those areas. Some schools were incredibly generous in the academic portion of their merit aid. JHU was wonderful. Peabody’s merit aid was minimal, and this was a consideration for us (at Peabody and other places). If my son chose to drop the science part of his dual degree, he would have been left with almost no merit aid in music. This was also a factor at Eastman/URochester. There are schools that say they do not offer any merit aid at all. We filled out the FAFSA and CSS Profile, as needed, knowing we’d qualify for some need-based aid. The non-merit aid schools came up with fabulous grant money that more than met our EFC. My son did not apply separately for any grants. He did apply separately for academic scholarships when these were offered (Indiana U). The advantage of schools like IU was that some of their large scholarships are good no matter what the major. If my son dropped physics, he’d still get that merit money. The same would be true if he dropped music. The only school that “met” our need with loans was Oberlin. </p>

<p>My son applied to all of his schools via Regular Decision. </p>

<p>I’ve received a few private messages regarding post #53. Unfortunately I do not have enough posts to be able to respond to a private message yet. CC pops up a window that says I have to have 15 posts before being able to send or reply to a private message. Sorry! I’ll respond as soon as possible though.</p>

57

<p>“If my son chose to drop the science part of his dual degree, he would have been left with almost no merit aid in music.”</p>

<p>I can add this to the list of “gotchas” I didn’t think about. I will have to read the exact scholarship/money terms from each college.</p>

58

<p>I always forget that IU offers the Double Degree option. Thanks for the reminder!</p>

59

<p>I just found out that if you are not applying to the SOM at Michigan (or as a 5-year Dual Degree applicant), then there is no “need or opportunity” to submit a music supplement. Apparently, if you want to minor in music, there is no way to show admissions how you might have spent 2+ hours a day for most of your life. It cant be done via the Common App or directly to the SOM. Apparently, that is less important than reading some overdone essay or two. My impression is that if you are not at least a dual degree student, then your visibility to the SOM is almost zero. Maybe someone can provide an example of a music minor having any sort of opportunity. I’m not optimistic.</p>

60

<p>Again, you are probably better off with schools that don’t have a conservatory or school of music, unless the double degree is on the table, and it is not.</p>

<p>Your son can send a supplement with the common application, that shows his musical talent, experience and goals.</p>

<p>He can do music independently, with private lessons, and do ensembles as extracurriculars on or off campus.</p>

<p>Or he can major in music and try to double major with science, which may or may not be possible at many schools.</p>

<p>Oberlin and Bard both have music studies for non-conservatory students. With your son’s level and hard work I would think it would be hard not being with the conservatory kids. A double degree might be the only palatable option at schools where there is a conservatory, given his interest in science.</p>

<p>But many many keep their skills and experience up at a college, without studying music as a major or minor, and still end up at top conservatories for grad work.</p>