Music minor and dual degrees issues

kmcmom13 · November 28, 2013, 6:04am

PianoParent, you are 100 percent correct. There IS NO SUCH THING as an SOM minor at UMich.

There is only an ACADEMIC music minor at LSA, for which there is no audition or other barrier to entry. That’s not to say there isn’t a number of talented musicians floating around at LSA and COE (said talented kids often populate the numerous non-SOM ensembles, choral or theatrical groups.). But the SOM is a professional school, and while it is possible to occasionally get access to a lower level class via permission, it is just as restrictive as other professional schools such as COE, Art & Design or Ross, all of which have entry barriers to clear.

This is why an undecided high level musician would be best to apply dual degree if there is any chance whatsoever of changing pursuit. And piano perf is exceptionally competitive at Umich…for example, I know one wait listed student who was accepted at Oberlin, so the SOM is on par with typical conservatory calibre admission odds. Some people assume that because it is a large state flagship with a large SOM program it is easier to access, but I would not generally assume this to be accurate in the final analysis.

When you said Michigan was off the table because your son did not want to dual degree, I assumed you knew that he was closing down this option, or I would have been more clear.

There is one SOM-administered degree he may wish to consider, which is the Bachelor of Musical Arts, designed for cognate study. It is not a performance degree oer se, but you can design a course of study that includes a studio…all the regular SOM requirements are covered as well. I know time is short with the deadline Saturday, so I’m letting you know about this in case he wants to keep this option open.

Here’s a link (it says composition but the MBA can be in instrument as well) <a href=“http://music.umich.edu/departments/composition/bma.htm[/url]”>http://music.umich.edu/departments/composition/bma.htm</a>
Best wishes!

PianoParent · November 28, 2013, 9:06am

“which is the Bachelor of Musical Arts,…”

Can this be done along with being in the LSA honors program? Actually, he would probably prefer their composition program. Being part of the SOM, at least he would be an insider rather than an outsider. Brown University is looking better because students have a lot of control over their courses.

“When you said Michigan was off the table because your son did not want to dual degree, I assumed you knew that he was closing down this option, or I would have been more clear.”

My son (and I) still had the question of how advanced the options were if one decided to minor only. I think that we now realize that the music minor options at UofM are vague and not necessarily at his level. He has been told that he should be able to get into a top tier conservatory, and many are surprised that he isn’t majoring in music. Well, he wants to double major, but he does not want to commit to 5 years for only undergraduate degrees. He prefers the Harvard/NEC five year program (in theory) that leads to a masters degree at NEC. He has already had many courses and training in music theory and composition. He really doesn’t need courses to learn a subject, and doesn’t like inflexibility of required distribution courses.

However, with the very low probability of acceptance into the Harvard/NEC program, he has to find schools with strong music performance opportunities for non-SOM majors. We thought that Michigan, being so large, would offer those opportunities. It might, but the feedback I’m getting is that performance opportunities for music minors is limited. Do they allow minors to even compete for opportunities, or are they specifically not allowed access to them? It’s not a good solution if he is denied the opportunity (say) to form a chamber music group with SOM students - people he has possibly already played with at Interlochen or his local philharmonic music school - some of whom are in the Juilliard Pre-College program.

SpiritManager · November 28, 2013, 1:18pm

I think you and your son should re-evaluate your resistance to taking five years to get two undergrad degrees rather than four years to get one. Is that one more year really such a big deal - when he would be able to explore in depth the areas he’s interested in? And then he would have his pick of any grad school in the nation - not just NEC at the end of it. We’ve mentioned before that money is rarely a huge issue for that fifth year, because usually a student of the caliber to qualify for a double degree is offered significant aid. What is one extra year in the grander scheme of things? When he would not need to shortchange one of his passions? Yes, a Masters is more practical, and yes he could go directly into a PhD program. On the other hand, what if he wanted to go into a PhD program in math or physics - and he was spending the last two years of his five year program mostly on music, ending up with a Masters in music and not in physics? The two separate undergrad degrees will give him the freedom to go any direction he should wish after undergrad - even to continue in both directions simultaneously.

compmom · November 28, 2013, 9:38pm

At Harvard, he wouldn’t have to major in music to do a lot of the things he wants to do. If he has already taken a lot of theory and composition classes. He can play piano outside of school and compose for the undergrad composers’ group and take classes in music or composition and organize recitals and play in ensembles- all as a science major.

Or he can major, or minor in music. Harvard has 8 gen ed classes and there may be room for a minor in music plus a major in science.

At the end of that 4 years, he would have a lot of options, including conservatory, more science or anything else. His desires may change and he may want something other than NEC.

Brown is great. One of mine went there, and loved it. The freedom to take what you want is great, though I will tell you that advisors often do strongly suggest…

chemusic · November 28, 2013, 9:45pm

I am thinking that you just need some options come May. Apply to a few dual degree schools and a few double major schools. Please check out Oberlin, Bard, Vassar, Williams - schools with many conservatory level musicians attending and an overall atmosphere of strong music and strong academics. His (and your thinking) may become clearer as decision time approaches - for now don’t decide, just apply to several types of schools so you have options in the spring.

kmcmom13 · November 29, 2013, 7:01am

^Not sure what you mean by “allowed.” Informally, there are myriad opportunities to do that. Michigan has more than 400 performances a year…clearly its not only the SOM :). Formally, access to the top tier ensembles which are a six hour weekly required class for performance, Ed majors etc., he can audition but usually would need permission to access the class. The same way a music kid who hasn’t taken math in college could in theory access an upper level honors math class…by special permission, but generally not practically accessible.

If his peers from interlochen are music performance majors, they will be eating, sleeping and breathing music and practicing several hours a day. After a few years, its anybody’s guess whether or not they’d collectively be at the same level. There may be cases where that’s true but practically speaking, its also possible and quite likely that their skill levels will diverge.

My son, for example, was a trumpet player in high school, won awards, played in everything going, etc. but in college didn’t specialize in trumpet performance even though he was at the SOM. So does his playing today match the average Umich senior trumpet performance major? No way…whenever he wrote something that needed a trumpet player, he’d get one of the “pros” to play it
But he didn’t entirely abandon trumpet, for fun he’d still play in ensembles every year. And he could have taken a studio, but elected instead to delve more deeply into other areas…and instruments :)

The part of your conundrum that your son might be overlooking to a degree is the bald fact that the next several thousand hours your son spends in education will define future steps to some degree as we are what we do. If he spends an equal part of those hours in music, he will develop, but perhaps not as much as one spending all their hours in music. If he proceeds in math and in a year changes his mind, he will also end up spending an extra year. Etc.

To take a 5-year program off the table just means at the end of the day there is not adequate intent to equally pursue the discipline of music. It is tantamount to choosing not to proceed in music at a “professional” level. Which doesn’t mean one can’t play musc, love music, attempt to continue to develop in music…it just means that however talented he may be, his focus will be elsewhere.

I think part of the problem kids face is that music in schools is often treated like an EC, so many students feel they can continue in the same fashion at college. On one hand, that’s entirely true. But on another, because at college you CAN focus all your energy on music, there are those that will so-doing make quantum leaps and bounds. I get to “hear” evidence now and then when my son’s former band mates stop over for a jam

So the question comes down to what your son wants. If he doesn’t really know, then he needs to keep his options open instead of closing them down by refusing to consider that it will take him LONGER to “specialize” in two distinct disciplines. Maybe your role in this is to help him understand completely that what he chooses now represents his intent of how he will spend his time, with consequences and an exit plan. Maybe a gap year would help him identify the path or paths he truly wants to follow, and what he’d be willing to do in order to do so.

PianoParent · November 29, 2013, 9:57am

Thanks for all of the responses.

The extra year for his music side doesn’t bother him, but he would like it to lead to a masters degree. There are examples of people who went from a science undergrad degree to a conservatory for a master’s degree in music, and they managed to develop their skills at an appropriate level. My son currently manages five AP classes, solo piano work (two major competitions a year and will be doing a full recital next April), chamber work (two recitals and a master class), accompanies the school choirs, and is the rehearsal pianist for his school’s musical. Practicing two or more hours a night would not be anything new to him. This should be OK for his undergraduate years … up to a point.

I see the bigger problem (starting in his freshman year) as what he will be doing in the summer. This is a big problem whether he does a dual degree or tries to keep music moving along as a minor. Will he apply to Bowdoin or The Music Academy of the West, or will he look for a science internship? What do other dual degree students do? I suspect that they do music in the summer because there is more time/flexibility of opportunities in science. However, I am hearing that some master’s/PhD science programs expect to see summer work and published papers.

So, by January of his freshman year, will he be applying for a summer science internship or for a summer music festival? Music will be more appealing because he is at a much higher level. He would not want to go to a lab and end up spending most of his time entering data into spreadsheets.

kmcmom13 said:

"…is the bald fact that the next several thousand hours your son spends in education will define future steps to some degree as we are what we do."

This is true. Even for the dual degree students, it must be clear almost from the start which way is the most desirable and will get them closest to the top. One can keep both paths open, but I think it would be nearly impossible to keep both on the fast track for very long. You can pick one and recover, but it would be difficult. If one is talking about just getting degrees in music and something else, that is not overly difficult, but the implication seems to be that the goal is much more; that one expects to get to a very high level in one area or the other.

SpiritManager · November 29, 2013, 1:15pm

To give your son a sense of what a dual degree program is like - here are some sample five year plans from Bard - including pursuing math and physics. [Bard</a> College Conservatory of Music | Undergraduate | Sample 5 year plan](<a href=“http://www.bard.edu/conservatory/undergraduate/sample_plan/]Bard”>http://www.bard.edu/conservatory/undergraduate/sample_plan/)

Conservatory students I’ve known in the sciences have managed to do both science and music in the summers. Many summer programs are short and can be combined with a research project. One thing I don’t know is how many Bard Conservatory graduates have continued to study both disciplines in post grad programs. It would definitely be interesting to know! I can imagine my son deciding to do that at some point, actually.

Again, I don’t understand why your son is so determined that after five years he must have an MM rather than a BM. Many students in one discipline take five years to graduate these days. It’s definitely not the end of the world. And, I repeat myself, but having a choice of where to go to grad school rather than having it determined for you when you’re 17 or 18, seems like a better option to me.

I do think, however, your son will do fine studying piano privately while pursuing a BS in Physics or Math at a school like MIT. Piano doesn’t require the collaborative environment that other instruments do - although if he’s interested in chamber work then he would need an environment of similarly passionate and advanced students. (Which he could find at schools like MIT, Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Williams, etc.)

compmom · November 29, 2013, 3:41pm

At Harvard, and other schools, there are many students maintaining or developing a high level of skill musically, while majoring in something else.

I don’t think you need to worry about the summers yet. Let things evolve. Your son will be able to make these decisions along the way.

I don’t really agree with the attitude that the next few thousand hours will determine any fate set in stone. Again, my definition of “making it” may be a little different, granted. Your son may end up doing something unexpected with his two interests, who knows. There are lots of possibilities.

I once read a great article about “wise wandering” that said that overplanning, or seeking certainty prematurely, can actually interfere with opportunities.

PianoParent · November 30, 2013, 10:02am

Thanks again for all of the experienced advice. My son’s immediate decision is whether to take 5-year dual degree programs off the table by not even applying to them. I would have him apply and keep his options open until he get his list of acceptances. I don’t think that will happen. Perhaps it’s less about the time it would take or the degrees acquired, but the idea (perhaps) that he won’t have the course flexibility that he might want. Brown is looking better to him all of the time. There is also the problem that one hopes to get into his/her most desired school and gives little thought about a different mix of admittances.

compmom · November 30, 2013, 10:13am

Just remember that he can apply to double degree programs later, after freshman year or possibly even later, at schools that offer the option.

I will PM you about Brown.

Clarimom · November 30, 2013, 10:55am

Yale also offers the B.A./M.M. five-year option, and you don’t have to choose to apply to that until sophomore year I believe. However, my S elected to not go that route because it would have been very difficult to get a double major under the B.A. degree, which he wanted. Also it is nice to have the opportunity to explore other graduate school opportunities for the master’s degree.

PianoParent · November 30, 2013, 11:11am

My son liked Yale very much. It’s high on his list. It’s just that he might not be high on their list. This has nothing to do with academics. It has to do with colleges’ inscrutable holistic admissions process.

PianoParent · November 30, 2013, 11:36am

“Wise wandering” is an interesting concept, and there is the serendipity that comes from the students and professors one meets. I think the “wise” part of wandering is knowing how to find those people and opportunities, or whether you need to set your own agenda. “Wise” should also include a big dose of what will provide a good career path. Since my son is interested in so many things, he will have the problem of wandering too much. My brother had the issue of always wanting the excitement of something new. It was amazing to see the energy and effort he would put into new projects. But then it would fade and he would be off in a completely new direction. He loved new things, and he struggled for years to find a consistent career.

I think this is a very interesting subject with many different angles. It’s one thing to have a passion for a subject, but quite another to have a passion for a career path. There is also short term passion and long term love. There is also the issue of selecting a career path to follow or creating a new one, and there is the issue of vocation and avocation.

I think that college (undergrad) is all about finding your career path. There is also the reality of competition and what level you can reach for a career. Which career path my son will choose might depend on what the specific career opportunities are and what level he could reach. Does he want to be a science research professor at a major university or a professor of music at a college that does not offer a performance degree? Does he want to be at the cutting edge of a new technology company with no time left over for music? Now that I’m older, flexibility and control mean so much more to me than a lot of money. Then again, one might not stick with one career over a lifetime (by choice or otherwise).

My son loves composing and conducting, but hasn’t had much experience in those areas. “Wise” wanderings could really mean “planned” wanderings. He could be the next Mahler … or not. Instead of wandering by being pulled into other peoples’ visions, I would have him carefully control his own wanderings. Each wandering, however, should include a big dose of career evaluation. I would also have his wanderings look for key mentors and opportunities. My son could be happy in many different worlds, and that his best career path might be the one that brings him to the highest level. The book “Outliers” talks about the value of being in the right place at the right time - and knowing that you are there. It’s also about being willing to try something other than your own agenda.

It’s a very interesting subject. How do you maximize opprotunity and chance, but still have control and some sort of direction? How do you “go for the gold”, but still have a good plan ‘B’.

Music minor and dual degrees issues

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