“Respectfully” being the key term. Invalidating people’s experiences with false equivalencies is overtly disrespectful, especially when added condescension is expressed. I don’t have a short fuse, but I do believe people in privileged groups have an obligation to check one another and not leave the entire burden on POC to defend the validity of their expressed perspectives.
I too respect OP’s grace, and EconPop’s; but I think it’s also important to acknowledge that not reacting to slights and invalidations and other micro-aggressions is exactly the sort of discipline that they have so eloquently described as an essential burden of Black American life. One must avoid being cast as the “angry black man/woman” at all costs, even when others feel free to be aggrieved. It’s important not just to praise this grace, but to appreciate its context and to take care not to take undue advantage of the grace afforded.
May very well be the case, @ucbalumnus, but if posters are made to feel unwelcome here as well, that is something we should all care about.
What is accomplished by driving people away? Hoping posters go back to their shell and don’t engage in any future discussions with anyone? Doesn’t sound like a recipe for progress to me.
However, some people may feel unwelcome merely because someone pointed out a personal experience or social science research relating to racial discrimination, because they believe that is does not happen (or much less than it actually does). For example, Majorities in U.S. say Black, Hispanic, Asian people face discrimination | Pew Research Center says that 26% of Republicans believe that White people face “a lot” of discrimination, but only 17% / 12% / 14% believe that Black / Hispanic / Asian people face “a lot” of discrimination. Would it be unwelcoming to point out (by personal experiences and social science research) that, for whose who believe that White people but not Black (/ Hispanic / Asian) people face “a lot” of discrimination, their beliefs are unlikely to match reality?
I say this as a general member, not as a moderator. Kudos to the OP for such a well-written post as well as for being welcoming and always keeping calm, cool, and collected when some respondents go off on unrelated tangents.
As I stated in my earlier post, my comment (which is my opinion only) was not made with my moderator hat on, as I am not moderating this thread. As such, getting into those specifics would not be aligned with the forum rules of having a welcoming environment.
But I will say that I think this response, and the post to which I am responding, fall squarely in "unrelated tangents." So if I post again in this thread, which I doubt I will, I will restrict it to the topic.
@skieurope has mentioned that, while he is a SuperMod, he is not moderating this thread. AFAIK under CC TOS/rules, he’s just a poster here like basically all of us are. In other words, his words carry no more or less weight than anyone else here, even though he is usually right on point.
Simply scrolling through this thread, starting with OP’s poignant start and other good ones, such as yours, clearly shows what is on/off tangent.
I love the USA. But there is also absolutely a need for change. Those are not mutually exclusive; and, it seems to me that this is the essence of the OP’s first message (although OP’s messages speak for themselves). To the extent you agree with my characterization, posts relating to this are on tangent. Others are off. And there are a lot of both in this thread.
On edit: I would hasten to add, upon reflection, that even this post is off-tangent!
I have talked about my feelings as an African-American man on the 4th of July and what I thought would help overcome the challenges that affect my family and my people, but I also wanted to talk about those with the most challenges from my old community. My own journey was not an easy one (My Mom’s income was never above 20K throughout my childhood despite always working 2+ jobs, while attending a school at the absolute bottom of a struggling school district), but I had some advantages, including an early gift for mathematics and a supportive Mother and village who saw hope in me (although they did not always see it for themselves). But among my friends, their were some in much worse shape as they dealt with food insecurity, a “Destruction of Hope” (thanks for that term @Hebegebe) at home, and a school whose main goal was to keep moving kids to the next grade level regardless of knowledge. My peers all had guardians who grew up during the Civil Rights Movement and saw Jim Crow up close and personal and definitely saw redlining or “white flight” in large numbers in my hometown. The differences in the mostly segregated school districts with blacks in the city and whites in the suburbs (decades after Brown vs Board of Education SCOTUS decision) were stunning (not much has changed, even today). The police presence in my neighborhood at that time was large (Quite a few of the officers I interacted with really cared, but there were a couple who were always on edge which made us weary of any officers we did not know). There were not a lot of ways out.
As a junior in college, I did a study for a class and found that only 4 out of 25 kids in my kindergarten class had attempted to attend a 4 year college and 2 members of my class had already passed away. For the 4 of us that attended a 4 year college, there where a few things that we all had in common. 3 out of the 4 of us ended up attending magnet schools during our academic matriculation. We all had a mentor or family member that championed our dreams and had already done what we were trying to do. Although I only saw/stayed with my father for a few weeks each summer during my teenage years, I saw him living a completely different existence, which was the biggest of all of my advantages. So I was much luckier than my peers and some of my 1st cousins who I grew up beside as brothers. Most families were/are trapped in terrible schools (systematic issue), with few if any options to move elsewhere (systematic issue), and few options for self-improvement for the adults. When you come from a “bottom caste” in America, you tend to only have 1 shot to make it out.
This post should be required reading for everyone on CC. If you don’t mind sharing, what was different about your father’s existence from your own? I wasn’t clear if you aspired to how he lived, or the opposite.
I know someone already mentioned A Hope in the Unseen, and I’d like to second that. It will give everyone a much needed perspective on the uphill challenge faced by many URM, first Gen, and low SES students.
Your narrative and openness create such a mix of emotions. Sadness, admiration for your determination and anger at not just the system but people like myself whom often take so much for granted. I am like many intuitively aware of injustices and inequities but all to often underestimate their enormity and impact. Thank you for the introspection.
Your words also inspire me to think about the opportunity and obligation we have to take advantage of this moment in time. No one who truly believes in the ideals upon which the 4th of July is based can listen to your story and not feel moved and or compelled to try and make a difference.
Once again thank you and sorry if this qualifies as a tangent.
It is funny @Lindagaf, but my father was just living a normal middle-class existence, but it felt like I had been transported to a different world. I interacted with other races on a daily basis with other teenagers in his neighborhood. When at home with my Mom, I did not see her often because she always worked 2 jobs and did not normally get home until after 10pm each night. My father was home every afternoon, we ate as a family everyday, we visited museums, amusement parks, restaurants, the beach, movies, pro baseball games, went on vacation, and things that most people take for granted. The 1st time that I had ever eaten at a restaurant with my mother was after my high school graduation. I have never gone to the movies with my Mom. I watched my father and his friends have intellectual discussions on politics, financial markets, interesting workplace challenges, etc. that just did not happen in my Mom’s household. I saw people with some wealth, up close for the 1st time. And in those snippets of time with my father, I believed that I could have that kind of life.
I third the reco for “A Hope In The Unseen”. I, too, was a MIT MITE and it was an extraordinary life-changing experience for me. When I heard about that book, I was on the waiting list months before it was published. Suskind is a strong writer and the narrative is fantastic.
Even for me, the struggles of Cedric were much more stressful than my own - one example is I never faced impending homelessness. That he rose from that was inspiring, but I also knew it was a strike of lightening, not the beginning of a groundswell of change.
Just so you know, I was not one of the people who flagged/“cancelled” your posts, lol.
I disagree with your characterization of the comment I responded to (there were no “personal feelings” therein, only a rebuttal of someone else’s perspective) and with your characterization of my response (there’s a vast difference between objecting to the specific words someone chooses to put out in a public forum, and calling for their “cancellation”), but I think other readers here are equipped to make their own assessments. Likewise, your criticism doesn’t make me feel “cancelled” or make me want to flee the forum. It’s not reasonable to expect to criticize others and yet be immune to critique ourselves. We need to be a little more resilient than that, and be willing to feel uncomfortable, if we want to be active participants in important discussions of this kind.
Well after some thought, I just wanted to say that none of my posts were germane to this thread. I have sat around and talked with some of my black (male) friends and they have talked about the BS they have had to put up with in their lives. @skieurope is correct in his post and I applaud it. I hope that those who have posted on this thread (@changethegame and @Econpop and any others) have found at least some place in this country where racism is not as prevalent as it was earlier in their lives.
@CU123 Thank you for making the effort to seek real answers, reflect, and change your mind. And thanks for being big enough to come back here to say so.
After the murder of George Floyd, I was sitting with a group of friends. Among the group was a white guy who is a close friend of 25 years who spends most of his non-working time hanging out with minorities and lives in a very integrated neighborhood where he is the minority. Even this guy had sweeping misconceptions about some of the things discussed in this thread (and other threads about race on CC.) However, due to the nature of the conversation, brought about by the focus on police murders of Blacks and the marches, he became part of that conversation with minorities (there were Black, PR, Native American, etc) men at that porch drinking beer and chatting. He became part of a conversation of a sort he’d never been part of. He listened, spoke his misconceptions, listened, considered, and this went on for hours. Over several encounters across several days, he admitted the same thing you just said: He’d never really realized all the BS (as you put it) … because he’d never had to deal with it personally and he’d never made the effort to learn more about the subject. His “gut feeling” about it was based mostly on ignorance, was wrong and he admitted that. That he listened, learned and reconsidered didn’t surprise me because I knew him well and knew him to be reasonable.
I have to admit your statements in msg#159 surprised me. A lot! I’m not sure I’ve ever seen someone on CC post a message like yours after making statements similar to your earlier ones. Thanks again for making the effort to learn, and for taking the time to say you’d reconsidered your previous statements here.
So if I post again in this thread, which I doubt I will, I will restrict it to the topic.
