Years ago I spoke with my law partner, a black woman, about her experience of discrimination. Interestingly, she told me she had many more incidents of discrimination being a woman than being black. Obviously this may not hold true for everyone, but it was her perspective.
It would not be surprising if “being viewed as a criminal threat” and “having the police called on them when not doing anything illegal” is much more likely to be encountered by men generally and Black men in particular, than women.
But it is entirely possible that advancement in some types of jobs could be affected more by gender than race.
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I want to quickly address sexism as I have seen women affected by it before jumping back to racism. I have spoken on CC about the fact that women in my large company (I have spent 10 years in a manufacturing setting and 10 years in a corporate setting in data management) have had many challenges and disadvantages that I have worked hard as a mentor and teammate to speak out on. I believe that it helps to have men speak out and support women when they encounter sexism (Just as it is helpful when outside groups support those dealing with racism).
I don’t know about sexism, but the thought of racism can really get into your psyche. I had a white female co-worker whom would “clam up” and clutch her personal belongings and often leave the room when I entered our common break room area. This happened enough times (I have been the only Black man at my branch office of about 100 people for long periods of time over the years) that I eventually sought out one of her friends before talking to her directly.
She had some sort of “criminal incident” with a Black male subject and admitted that she was just very uncomfortable around me. I am a pretty gregarious, easy going guy (The Black men that I know all have a “public persona” and mine has always worked hard to put people at ease by being as “clean cut” and “non-threatening” as possible) so being thought of such a “threat” in my work-place was jarring.
It took some time, but that young lady and I ended up eating lunch together at least once a week, and over time spoke to each other every day. I got to know her well enough to believe she was not racist at all (although some of my black friends would disagree), but traumatized by a specific event in her life. A large number of African-Americans in my circle have had events in their lives that could be categorized as traumatic and a collective history of bad outcomes that have occurred to themselves or family due to the color of their skin. That is why I continue to ask everyone to “put themselves in others shoes” and try to understand the other side of our issues.
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When my Caucasian son was in med school he relayed several stories about this. Even with his youth many patients automatically assumed he was the doctor in charge. He’d always correct them, letting them know he was just a student and nodding to the real doctor. Some still would address all of their questions to him even after he pointed it out. Others would sheepishly apologize or just pretend it hadn’t happened. Both race and gender matter, and when the female is also a minority - even if she is obviously much older and more “in charge” than he was it was the worst. Many people consider females to be the nurses, esp if they aren’t Caucasian.
It irritated the heck out of him. Imagine what it did to the doctors. He told me he asked about it the first time or two that it happened and was told, “We’re used to it,” making me think it happens way more often than it should.
I sometimes wonder if he hadn’t had the discussion with me if I’d have done the same in a similar situation. Later, when my mom was in and out of hospitals with her cancer diagnosis and treatment I made sure to see who the doctor was first before addressing anyone.
Now I’m glad whenever I see a commercial or TV show/movie that shows other (all) genders and races as professionals. People learn what they grow up with and see. I’m glad our kids’ (and adults’) brains are being taught with more than just words that any race/gender can be anything.
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Congresswoman Shirley Chisholm stated “Of my two handicaps, being female put many more obstacles in my path than being black”.
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Shirley Chisholm’s comment is exactly like that of my former colleague. It could be that it was and is still more socially and professionally acceptable to treat women differently to their disadvantage than to treat the races differently.
I accompanied my dad to a job site one time. An engineer asked if I was “Daddy’s little helper.” I replied, “Yes, I guess so. I’m working on my master’s degree in structural engineering…”. That shut him up.
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That was an insightful story - thanks. These days I wish there were more of these kind of thoughtful discussions in America.
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When I started my career, I was taken to clubs where I couldn’t eat in the men’s dining room. I was asked what kind of birth control I used in job interviews. I was taken off cases if the case required out of town travel with a male colleague. (The wives vetoed that). Male colleagues made unwanted passes. But I kept on keeping on and didn’t allow those slights to make me a victim. I think that’s what most successful women have done.
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At my university, housing insecurity is one of the reasons students drop out, and it disproportionately affects African American students. We, the higher ed community at regional universities and community colleges, need to do a better job of supporting at-risk students. Faculty assumptions about students often stem from their own middle class experience, and it’s only through thoughtful discussions such as this that we can make lasting changes.
@Econpop and @ChangeTheGame : Thank you both for your insights that you have shared .
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this is directly in response to @MaineLonghorn’s post earlier about job sites/engineers. when i was in my early 20s - doing marketing for an engineering group - i got kissed on the job site by a contractor. EWHH. i wish i had a comeback; i was too shocked.
Looking at some of the large medical groups around here, the available primary care physicians accepting new patients appear to be mostly female and mostly non-White. Similar in your area (or where his medical school was) or not?
It may be true there, I’m not sure. I know he was working at the hospital at the time of these happenings and the patients he was seeing were there having come in for whatever reason, often unplanned.
I imagine those seeing a primary care physician know ahead of time who they are going to see.
Around here they have a tough time getting primary care physicians.
Out of curiosity I just looked up the place where I go. All but two are “typical” White female. One who isn’t appears to be Hispanic and she’s a CRNP. Three are MDs. Two are DOs. Two are PAs, one of these two is White male. (9 total) The only one accepting new patients is one of the DOs.
Considering my area, I bet most people seeing them in a room without knowing a thing would pick the male as the Dr.
I really appreciate posts like this one, thoughtful discussions.
“Waking up White” is a goo book we read a few years ago at church, part of an adult Sunday School class trying to learn more about the issues of racism. Can’t say I agreed with it all (the author seems to beat herself up a lot for not understanding more than she does). But it was the first place I learned about things like redlining, WW2 vet perks not available to all, etc
https://www.debbyirving.com/the-book/
I was reminded of the book when thinking about Holidays because there is a section talking about how the multi-culture neighborhood (many immigrants) had children who were scared by their Halloween traditions. The transitioned into a celebration that was more comfortable to all families.
I think that you make a very valid point. There are lots of successful women who have excelled in spite of past traumas, and I believe the same can be said of anyone who has overcome obstacles both large and small on their way to successful careers and lives. But I have also seen some who have paid a price due to sexism and that have struggled to recover. Sexism has always been hard for me to understand, because I have observed it being perpetuated by loved ones as much as it has been committed in my workplace.
I believe in my own strength to overcome any obstacle placed in front of me, but I also understand that we are all different and I can still imagine obstacles that would have gotten the best of me in my youth (like some of the obstacles that my Grandparents had to endure). I have never been a victim, and I hope that is not being conveying when I share my thoughts about being Black. I am just looking to illuminate some of the challenges faced within my community, and to continue a constructive dialogue.
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I worked in a truck plant as a production line supervisor in the early 80’s. I put up with a lot, and I assumed that I was lucky to be able to deal with it and do well in my job. Fast forward to now, and I see that I wasn’t lucky … I was treated like crap and had to work much harder than any of the men to get half the respect they got. While I never thought of myself as a victim, I absolutely was. I was a victim of a misogynistic environment, and it was quite frankly unacceptable. At around that time, my H’s coworker told him that he should be glad he’s not black … he said that it made work and life much more difficult than it should be. He was no “victim,” but he was being honest. Life is harder for some not because of who THEY are, but because bias exists and rears it’s ugly head in many insidious ways. Until we can allow people to discuss their experiences honestly and see their lives through their eyes (rather than filtering what they say through the lens of our own experience), we can’t move forward in a meaningful way.
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I have composed and discarded several replies to your post - partly because my reaction is definitely off topic, and partly because I cannot find the words to express it. Suffice it to say that I am grateful to you because what you were willing to endure, made the path smoother for every woman who came after you. Thank you.
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This reminds me a lot of an experience I had a few years ago, a bunch of friends sitting around talking about the Harvey Weinstein revelations. It turned out that every single woman in that room had had an experience of a man exposing themselves, rape or where they thought they were going to be raped. The men had no idea how ubiquitous these experiences are.
As an architect I occasionally had people think I was the secretary when I first started, but when I told them I’d actually prepared the drawings they were very apologetic. I’ve never felt like I was the victim of sexism, though I was probably underpaid because I didn’t like asking for raises.
I have a non-white SIL who is the primary reason why I know a tiny bit what it’s like not to be white in America.
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