My Rant on Dual Credit Vs. AP Classes

Parents Forum
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<p>I believe that we need to get rid of the belief that AP’s are harder than Dual credit.</p>

<p>It’s unfair that those taking dual credit courses at their local CC’s are not being looked at in the same light as those taking AP’s. Why? Well here are some reasons:</p>

<ol>
<li>Some professors can be just terrible, and getting a good grade can be very very difficult to do. While some argue that some professors can be too easy, I just can’t/don’t believe this to be true. Every professor has to teach certain material, or they’d be out of work. Every professor puts you to the test.</li>
<li>High school teacher (be they AP teachers or regular class teachers) are much more lenient towards their students than almost every professor. Therefore, those taking dual credit courses should be looked at in a more positive light in the college admission process.</li>
<li>Classes such as math classes with only four tests (including the final) making up your ENTIRE grade (no quizzes, no homework, no classwork, nothing. Just your 4 test grades), are much harder to achieve an A grade in than an AP Calc class with multiple homework assignments, tests, class work, and even extra credit work you can do to raise your grade.</li>
</ol>

<p>Now, I understand this may seem to be JUST a rant, but I assure you it’s more than that. I’m tired of going to almost every thread on CC about dual credit courses vs. AP classes just to see everyone agreeing that AP’s are more difficult than dual credit classes, and many of those replying have never taken a dual credit class, or know anyone who has done so. AP’s and dual credit classes should be equal in the eyes of admission officers and dual credit courses should be looked at as more difficult than most AP classes IMO.</p>

<p>Parents, What are your opinions about this and why?</p>

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<p>I did both AP and dual credit. </p>

<p>Many of my dual enrollment credits were actually easier than my APs- including one taken at University of Michigan. </p>

<p>I’ll break it down by numbers:

  1. You can say the exact same thing about teachers so I don’t get your point. </p>

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<li><p>?</p></li>
<li><p>Again, depends on your teacher. I had some VERY strict ones and I’ve had some VERY lenient professors. </p></li>
<li><p>My Calc class in a university actually gave a higher weight to homework than my calc teacher in high school. NO EC in either one. And there was a curve in my university but not in my high school. </p></li>
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<p>It sounds like you’ve had some bad experiences, but you can’t generalize. </p>

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<p>I don’t think this is what you meant to say. I think you mean shouldn’t and in that case I think it really doesn’t matter. Colleges look at your app holistically and not all AP classes are even looked at as equal let alone AP and dual enrollment.</p>

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<p>It really depends on the school. The one that I’m familiar with, the dual credit was much, much easier than the equivalent AP courses, and this was recognized by students and faculty at the high school.</p>

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<ol>
<li><p>Sure, the same can be said about teachers and professors, but to varying degrees. Have a couple of kids running to the principle or their parents if they deem something to be unfair, and their will be hell to pay. Bring in a parent or try to get the deen involved, and you’d probably graduate by the time anything ever happens. How many high school teachers can you seriously get that are terrible? One or two perhaps? For some reason, it seems as if you’re equating the egos and everything else that comes along with professors with high school teachers. Unfortunately, this is not the case.</p></li>
<li><p>Those very strict professors are who make it difficult for you to get that A and instead almost make sure their students’ lives are hell. These exact professors can screw up your GPA big time, and people need to take that into account.</p></li>
<li><p>Well, I’m glad that your professor actually graded the damn homework, but many professors only count test grades as your only score. For example, this last math class I took last semester and this upcoming semester, both only take tests as their grades, and nothing else.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>I haven’t had any dramatically bad experiences, but I got a B in a math class, and if I had been given homework (that was actually graded), quizzes, and/or classwork, I would have easily gotten an A, in an otherwise all A’s high school career.</p>

<p>Some other points:</p>

<p>In high school, you have all year to cover the material. In college, you have all of that material thrown at you for about 4 months, and you’ve finished the entire class that takes the average high school student the entire school year to get done.</p>

<p>Almost anyone who has a child in college or have gone through the transition from high school to college themselves know that that transition can be a difficult and long one. Grades can suffer severely in freshman year of college. For those High school students who decide to take the dual enrollment method, this is not taken into account from what I’ve seen.</p>

<p>Finally, many of you have probably have heard of FLVS (or similar online high schools), and high school students are allowed to take AP classes through them. Those AP classes are a joke and filled with busywork. Just put some garbage down, send it, study for the AP test yourself though study guides and that a 4 or 5 on the exam. AP classes<Dual enrollment classes in difficulty. Yes, I’m generalizing, but I believe that this generalization is, for the most part, accurate.</p>

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<p>Then isn’t this unfair for those students who take the dual enrollment method and have to face classes that could arguably be much harder than AP classes? The reason I’m taking dual enrollment classes is because my high school does not offer any AP’s.</p>

<p>I’m just feeling really down with this B, and well tbh just because most people automatically assume AP’s to be harder, and personally, I find this to be untrue.</p>

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<p>Our high school doesn’t even recognize DE credits from the CC. The college bound kids here take DE classes at the flagship and those classes are often 300 level or higher. Around here the CC ARE easier. The issue isn’t with the 'ease" of the class but how do you measure the quality of the class taken. With AP there is a national test that everyone takes on the same day and schools can use those scores to compare student to student/class to class. It isn’t the class that is being tested as much as it is the knowledge. Students don’t have to take the AP class to take the AP test.</p>

<p>Most better colleges are doing away with AP credits anyway. At one time when they were not all that common it makes sense, now, almost every high school has AP classes and they are more the “norm” for college bound kids vs the exception.</p>

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<p>But the AP test can be studied for - without too much difficulty. Everyday read a study guide for that AP for about an hour, and that 5 will be yours. I mean, really? The AP exam is the only way they can assess this? Personally, I love the atmosphere at my CC and would give anything to be there instead of at a high school. The free time, the free atmosphere, the people, I believe it makes a high school student more mature than a high school student hanging around with bums the same age as them (yes, I’m generalizing again, but this is the norm).</p>

<p>So a question here: I just took an Intro to Psychology class last semester, and fortunately got an A. If I go and take an AP test for Psychology, will I be looked at the same way a student who took AP Psych at a high school (let’s just say we both got 5’s)?</p>

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<p>The big difference between AP and Dual Credit courses is that in order to get AP credit, the student has to take a standardized exam that many students take and in addition to the grade in the course, the student has a test score. Colleges know what is covered on those AP exams. The score is an additional piece of evidence as to how well the student knows the covered material. If a dual credit student wants to take the same exams after taking a course that is supposed to be an equivalent of the AP course, he is welcome to do so and will be given equal credit to the AP student when the test scores come out. In fact, you don’t have to take any course to take the AP exam. You get a big fat nada in terms of college credit for taking AP courses without the exam results being of a certain thresh hold regardless of your grade in that course. At some colleges and under certain circumstances it is possible to get credit for dual enrollment courses.</p>

<p>Also most students who is proficient enough to skip intro courses often can do so, by making the request to the department at a college. Most colleges and departments have departmental exams or other way that those kids ready to go to the next level can do so even without the AP courses, exams, or dual enrollment. Credit is not given for the skipped course, but you start off at a higher level, which opens up the schedule for trying other courses. Three of my sons were excused from the language requirements of their colleges by showing proficiency. No AP courses or dual enrollments involved.</p>

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<p>Any course can be easy or hard, rigorous or not, a lot of work or not a lot of work. Our approach was to contact the professor or department head to ensure a rigorous course. Our son took dual enrollment courses mainly at private and public universities with a few at a community college. The rigor and quality of community college course varies widely from professor to professor.</p>

<p>How is a college to evaluate dual-enrollment courses when there is such variety of rigor and work from professor to professor?</p>

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<p>It also depends on the college. Some (many?) top colleges will not accept dual enrollment credit unless the course is taught on the college campus by a college professor and comprised of a majority of college students.</p>

<p>In contrast, such colleges will accept AP credit; some for full course credit and others for fulfillment of GE’s.</p>

<p>It also depends on the HS. Our judo is infinitely easier than the AP courses taught at our HS. (All of our HS courses are graded on a curve, too.)</p>

<p>But, OP, your four points are ALL teacher/professor specific. Some college professors offer credit for math HW. Others do not. Some college profs offer extra credit possibilities, others do not.</p>

<p>So yes, just a fact-free “rant”.</p>

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<p>I trust that you see the contradiction in your point: the AP test is one-size fits all – no extra credit, no HW, no quizzes, no make-up. It is that 5 that adcoms are more impressed with. An A in the class and a 3 on the test, immediately discounts that A.</p>

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<p>So, in essence, admission officers don’t give a damn as to whether your teacher/professor was good or bad. They just care about that A and a 5, correct?</p>

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<p>Unfettered Dreams, of course you can take the AP exam and if you get a 5 or whatever the school’s threshhold grade is, many schools will give you the credits for a semester of intro to Psych or whatever course they have that lines up with the AP course. Or not. AP is not always accepted. Some schools will not accept the AP grade even if it is a 5, or accept it only under certain circumstances. For instance, math majors at some tech schools still have to take a calc course of sorts even with a 5 on AP Calc. Different departments could have different rules on how the credit can be used. You might be able to use the credit if you are one major but not another. So AP is not a 100% panacea. </p>

<p>Yes, it is possible to self study for an AP exam without even taking a corresponding course, but the exams are rigorous enough that one doesn’t see a lot of that.</p>

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<p>Same with my high school. Especially considering the community colleges are heavily populated by remedial students. Even attempting to take 4-year courses would most likely be denied due to the perceptions among HS faculty, parents, and most colleges that only students looking for an “easy A” would do so considering the well-known academic rigor of my HS in general and the fact it offers courses up to the equivalent of intermediate undergrad courses at respectable colleges. </p>

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<p>Those AP classes are either reasonably rigorous or the students attending them are above-average self-starting academic achievers for them to routinely get a 4-5 on the AP exam. </p>

<p>A weaker AP course or self-study student group is one where most/all students are scoring 3 or less on the exam. Then again, even a 5 on an AP exam is usually not the equal of its corresponding undergrad course…especially one offered at an elite/respectable college.</p>

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<p>Unfettered, you have to understand that your experience isn’t the same as everyone else. You argue that it’s not fair that in your DE class, the homeworks didn’t count toward your grade - you only counted 4 tests. How about AP? Sure, they get a grade on their transcript the includes homework (maybe, not always, depends on the school), but to get college credit they have to pass the exam. That’ ONE exam, not the 4 you took.</p>

<p>You complain about classes being a full year instead of one semester - not always true. Look at Calculus BC, Physics C, Chemistry, Biology… those all cover 2 semesters of work over the course of a single year, so are at the same pace as your DE class. </p>

<p>What you are experiencing is specific to your school - in our school, kids who take DE don’t list them on their HS transcript, and their grades don’t hurt their GPA. Kids who take AP classes do have them included, and in many cases they are as hard as, if not harder, than equivalent D/E classes. It all depends on where you take that D/E class. The same could be said of students who take their general ed classes at a community college and then transfer into a 4-year school. They are taught differently, and the class at the 4-year school may or may not be harder, though many believe they are.</p>

<p>Our high school offers some classes that are both AP and D/E. They are taught at the HS, but the teacher has been trained by the state flagship, and follows their curriculum. For the AP Calculus class, they get a transcript from UConn showing 2 classes, and if they go to UConn, those grade are part of their GPA going forward. They also sit for the AP exam (or at least some of them do, because many don’t need the AP credit because they already have the D/E credit. </p>

<p>If you AP teachers are any good, they grade in a similar fashion to the professors - often on a curve, and it’s NOT easy to get an A. And if it’s easy to get an A, they’re probably not teaching the material well enough to ensure their students will score well on the exam. Would you rather get an A, but no college credit? Or a B or even a C, but have credit that will transfer? What is the purpose of taking these classes?</p>

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<p>I honestly cannot see how I can provide any facts in this argument. What numbers could/should I bring?
I just fell it is completely unfair that admission officers do not take this into account, and people are quick to say that AP classes are harder.</p>

<p>All high school teachers require more than four tests as your grade. That is a fact. If admission officers do not take this into account when looking at my B and realize that professors may only take test scores and nothing else, I feel that that is a great injustice towards my abilities and me.</p>

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<p>@CPT, my main concern is not about receiving credit. My concern lies in what college admission officers will think about in terms of the “rigor” or the classes I took in high school, and the grades I receive. Receiving credit is not an issue, and I do not care. (sorry if that sounded a little bit rude and too straightforward, but just wanted to make that clear to everyone.) Thanks for the help everyone.</p>

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<p>Here’s the thing: I can look at what a kid got on the AP exam and have a good idea of what material he has had covered by knowing the AP exam. And there could be hundreds of such students, thousands, and they all took the same exam. With dual enrollment, there are literally thousands, tens of thousands, maybe hundereds of thousands of different courses with different things covered. How the heck is anyone supposed to be able to assess them? Admission officers have minutes to make the assessment.</p>

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<p>Add me to those who have found (through experiencing both types with my kids) that AP is superior to CC classes… There have been several cc A students who couldn’t get a 4 or 5 on the similar AP test.</p>

<p>Our high school is on block scheduling, so all classes are done in roughly the same amount of time as most colleges.</p>

<p>I’ve had my kids do community college classes for the experience, but we never expected the credit to carry over. For oldest, one class did. He later told me if he’d taken the same class at his 4 year school that it would have been more rigorous than the cc class. For middle none did (though his AP credits transferred). I’m ok with that. His cc classes were essentially done for high school so they counted as such. </p>

<p>If you want the credits to transfer, go to a state college. Middle son would have had credits for all of his cc classes and his AP if he’d chosen a state school. It doesn’t bug me that he chose elsewhere.</p>

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<p>Then take the corresponding AP test and add that score to your transcript. That will show mastery.</p>

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<p>State colleges, universities and private universities can offer more but many students/parents choose community colleges for cost reasons.</p>