<p>“This constant assumption among a fair number of people who post here regularly that “evangelicals” are stupid, narrow-minded, disrespectful, under mind control, and generally sub-human really gets old. It certainly demonstrates the lack of tolerance on the part of the people writing such things.”</p>
<p>The same POV is present toward all evangelicals, republicans, conservatives and many Christians. I’m sick to death of all the assumptions. And then when you don’t fit their mold, some of them go nuts.</p>
<p>“Yeah, it’s clear that Romney is trying to appeal to the conservative mainstream Christians”</p>
<p>I think you’re a little confused Leal and maybe you should stop making statements like this. Mainstream Christians are generally not conservative and the conservative group of Christians is often not mainstream.</p>
<p>Gandhi is in my opinion about one of the most admirable human beings who ever lived.</p>
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<p>and very quotable </p>
<p>The King was wearing enough for the both of us. * On Showing up to meet His Majesty King Edward VII of England in just a loincloth, a reporter wondered aloud if this was disrespectful to the king.*
:)</p>
<p>“I hear you, zoosermom. Let’s model something better.”</p>
<p>I thought we already had. I find your posts very informative and well worth looking for. I am particularly appreciative of the way you don’t lump all Christians together.</p>
<p>Momfromme, I do appreciate hearing more about your pov re judiasm. </p>
<p>A book that I have particularly loved and wish I could almost memorize is called “The Gospel According to Moses”. It’s written by a novelist, Althol Dickson, who attended Chever Torah for many years. How I envy him this experience! He offers insight in that book about how Judiasm has so very much to teach us all and how we are (or should be) more alike than different. </p>
<p>A very fine discussion on the last few pages of this post. I believe that Mini and Hayden hit the nail on the head especially in #161 and #164, pointing out again that Romney really hasn’t given a forthright answer as to what he believed and/or taught in the recent past and his world view today. Incidentally, I had Mormon [casual] friends in high school and thought well of them. A Mormon tabernacle was about 1/2 mile from our house. Two girls I knew had much reservation about their church’s racial views and to their non-mormon friends they expressed opposition to the policy. I don’t know if they ever spoke against it in the church, but I wouldn’t expect that they did, given their young age and strictness of the Mormon life. Back to Romney, like Zoosermom said, it’s not a question of whether or not I agree with Romney’s faith, but I sure want to know if faith will instruct him on political policy. And by the way, it’s well documented that women have been kicked out of the Mormon church for being a bit too contemporary and independent.</p>
<p>I apologize for ‘lumping all Christians together’ - I tried to qualify my words with ‘Evangelical’ but maybe I missed including that word on a post? </p>
<p>I don’t mean ALL Christians. We had a wonderful discussion on another thread about the many anti-war Christian organizations, for example, showing that there are many out there who don’t fit the mold. And I have a number of wonderful Christian friends who are respectful and loving.</p>
<p>When I say ‘Evangelical’ I am referring to those who, well, evangelize! Proselytize! Try to convert others to their religion.</p>
<p>Those are the Christians that, quite clearly imo, do not respect other religions.</p>
<p>I quite agree with churchmusicmom that the REASON they don’t respect other religions is that they think they have THE truth, they have had a wonderful experience, and they want to share it with others. In most cases, they have wonderfully good intentions. (Although, in SOME cases I suspect it is more about control than love, I should add.)</p>
<p>In much the same way as I shouted to the world to PLEASE quit eating dead animals when I first became a vegetarian 25 years ago (“You’ll feel lighter! Your risk for cancer and heart disease will be drastically reduced! You won’t get sick as much! You’ll help the environment! You’ll no longer be contributing to the suffering of animals!” etc.) they, in most cases, earnestly believe they have found the secret to something special and want to help others see the light too. (It was quickly pointed out to me by a co-worker that I was ‘cramming vegetarianism down people’s throats’ and I realized I had turned it into a religion, so, much chagrined, I toned it down considerably.) </p>
<p>So sure, evangelicals try to sway others to their beliefs out of good intentions (in most cases. Again, I do think SOME evangelical leaders are in a power trip).</p>
<p>But here is the key: Those on OTHER (non-Christian) spiritual paths can have the SAME kind of dramatic experience, yes, just as profound, as the Christians. For example, Buddhists are known to find serenity, peace, and unity with the Divine energy that permeates the universe. New Agers may claim a profound understanding of metaphysical laws, and a feeling of oneness with God, the universe, and all its inhabitants. I could give examples of other faiths as well.</p>
<p>But the Christian religions, IN GENERAL, do not accept ANY other non-Christian religion as valid. The Evangelicals, in particular, even go so far as to say that ANY other non-Christian spirituality (because it’s not always in the form of an organized religion) is not only not to be respected, but is actually ‘demonic!’ They say that those feelings of peace and guidance from God, if felt by a non-Christian, are simply bogus. They ignore the scriptures ‘you will know a tree by its fruit’ and ‘the fruit of the Spirit is Joy’ and completely ignore those fruits (peace, joy, love) demonstrated by those in other spiritual paths, and claim that they are not really what they appear to be, but MUST be false, since the person is not under their domain.</p>
<p>So, when those of other spiritual paths get, er, annoyed by the Evangelicals’ attempts to change what, in the minds of the non-Christians, does not need changing, and they get annoyed by the Evangelicals’ attempts to infringe upon their free will and right to choose what they feel is best for themselves, they may lash out a bit and come across judgmental in return towards the Evangelicals. Then the Evangelicals get offended and it goes round & round.</p>
<p>The Evengelicals have the power to break the cycle by not being so pushy towards others, by living and let live. But the very nature of their beliefs doesn’t really allow them to do that, since they are admonished to go out and spread the word. (Although, Jesus did say, did he not, if someone is not receptive to you, wipe the dust off your sandals and leave them be. But oops, they must’ve forgotten that.) Churchmusicmom gave REASONS for their behavior, but that doesn’t necessarily excuse it. (And thanks, Churchmusicmom, for acknowledging that they ‘mess up’ in that respect.) No one likes to have someone cram something down their throat that they don’t want.</p>
<p>So, I stand by my assertion that Evangelical Christians generally do not respect any non-Christian spiritual paths. I NEVER said that Evangelical Christians were stupid. Narrow-minded? Well…I am open to being proven wrong on that one.</p>
<p>ok- sorry I don’t have a problem with evangelicals per se, I have a problem with evangelicals who judge me because I do not follow their religion.
Big difference between wanting to share their experience because it makes them happy ( although that is a pretty immature view of happiness, assuming what makes you happy will make someone else happy), and wanting to restrict my choices & rights to the same strictures that a member of their faith must follow.
:p</p>
<p>“But the Christian religions, IN GENERAL, do not accept ANY other non-Christian religion as valid”</p>
<p>Are you absolutely kidding? You don’t really believe this, do you? I am Moravian, the first protestant (Hussite) denomination and I can assure you that we view other religions as valid. We also don’t care what you believe and have no interest in telling you what to do I’ve posted links to the NCC and if I recall they blew the minds of some of the anti-Christian posters because they had absolutely no idea. Please, please, please stop the ignorance. Evangelicals are not all Christians. As I’ve also posted, I have never met an evangelical or fundamentalist Christian. You may not mean to be offensive but you are. Please get educated on the various denominations or stop posting about that which you know nothing.</p>
<p>I sincerely apologize for offending you - that was not my intention!</p>
<p>It’s difficult to make my point. I am trying very hard to clarify that I am speaking primarily of those Christians who proselytize and impose their religions on others. I went to great lengths to ensure that most of my statements clearly said ‘Evangelical’ and not just ‘Christian’ when addressing the issue of trying to impose their views on others.</p>
<p>You picked out a single statement in which I did not qualify it with the term ‘Evangelical’ and that was for a very specific reason; because this particular statement was addressing a different issue: the issue of whether non-Christians can go to ‘heaven.’</p>
<p>Regarding the separate and distinct issue of respecting other religions as valid, I can only speak from my own experience. I’d never heard of the Moravian faith, and I’m happy to hear that they are non-judgmental. I know that there are some mystical and esoteric branches of Christianity (like Gnosticism and Unity) that most definitely acknowledge the validity of other, non-Christian religions. But I’ve never heard of a Baptist or Catholic or Protestant or Evangelical church (and this is whom I’m referring to when I say ‘mainstream Christianity’ and ‘Christians in general’) making an official statement that it is possible for Buddhists, Hindus, New Agers, Agnostics, Pagans, etc. to go to ‘heaven.’</p>
<p>At most, I’ve heard them say “Only God knows the heart. It is possible that the person accepted the Lord on his deathbed and got saved” but I’ve never heard any of them say something like “Sure, maybe Buddhists really do worship the same God and we’ll see them in heaven, along with the Pagans.”</p>
<p>I hope this clarifies what I’m trying to get across. Once again I apologize for any offense.</p>
<p>Also, since you’ve never met an Evangelical, you are unable to know from experience the degree of offensiveness felt by non-Christians when they are told to their face such rude statements as “You are going to ‘hell.’ Your beliefs are ‘satanic.’”</p>
<p>Leal, I understand exactly what you are trying to state. I am a practicing Catholic, and yet, in certain circles of the christian faith I am not accepted. </p>
<p>With that being said, why is it that the left label every Republican into “the christian evangelical” pile?</p>
<p>I think people categorize us this way because of Roe V Wade. Take a step back and ask how many republicans want to overturn it? Rudy is pro-choice (do not read into this that I support him) Many republicans are republicans b/c the overall platform, not our religion</p>
<p>Leal, the bottom line is that you don’t know what you’re trying to state because you don’t know what you’re talking about. You obviously have no knowledge of or experience with mainline Protestants, so perhaps you should just stop now.</p>
<p>“You picked out a single statement in which I did not qualify it with the term ‘Evangelical’ and that was for a very specific reason; because this particular statement was addressing a different issue: the issue of whether non-Christians can go to ‘heaven.’”</p>
<p>Since this is the second apology, this is not a “single statement.” Individual human beings proselytize to you. Take exception with those individual human beings.</p>
<p>Let me clarify. You are abolutley correct that my comment makes a generalization of those on the left. For that, let me apologize and correct myself. </p>
<p>My impression, from forums like this and others, is that there are those one the left who classify any Republican as a the bible-toting, “everyone who doesn’t believe as I do is going to h@#%” type. I faced this before when trying to engage in discussions on numerous forums. Not to say this doesn’t happen on the other side (“oh, you lefties are the tree-hugging, free-loving, wanting to corrupt my kids kind of people”). It’s scary how intolerant these discussions can get. </p>
<p>Where is the middle ground? It seems like it can’t be found in this thread. Just because I follow an organized religion doesn’t make me right or wrong, just as your disagreement with some of the tenants of my religion make you right or wrong. There are some who hold themselves above others, but you won’t find it again coming from this poster…</p>
<p>Regarding the issue of imposing their beliefs on others, I made it very clear that I was referring to Evangelicals, NOT mainline Protestants.</p>
<p>Regarding the separate issue of not respecting other paths to God as valid, I also stated that I am very open to being educated on that. Can you tell me of a mainline Protestant religion that acknowledges that those of non-Christian religions are just as welcome in ‘heaven’ as the Christians? (Besides the Gnostics and Unity, which are not mainstream Christian.) If such a religion exists, I really would like to know about it.</p>
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<p>Respectfully, zoosermom, you admitted that you have never met a fundamentalist/Evangelical. I find that amazing, since they have such a strong presence in my area. </p>
<p>I understand your point that, usually, generalizing about any particular group is not a good thing.</p>
<p>However, I respectfully submit to you that YOU don’t know what I am talking about, in regards to Evangelicals as a GROUP, a political group as well as a religious group. It is not just individuals who decide to proselytize, but entire churches across the country, who are networking together and pushing the same agenda.</p>
<p>I agree that speaking in terms of groups is generally not good, but to completely disregard the reality of the group is also not realistic.</p>
<p>Since you’ve never met any Evangelicals, I suggest that you get educated ‘about that which you know nothing.’ :)</p>
<p>Leal I have been very clear about my lack of knowledge about evangelicals, which is why I don’t ever offer opinions about them. See how that works? You have repeatedly made offensive statements about all Christians. Twice in this thread alone you have had to apologize and backpedal. Then you go and justify the behavior. Just stop the blanket statements. You obviously don’t know anything about non-evangelical Christians. If you have questions, ask and I’ll be happy to answer you. But stop the generalizations. It’s not acceptable. Take this into your soul: there are many Christians who do not proselytize, who don’t judge, who actually break bread with other religions. Once you accept as fact that all Christians are not what you think, then you can open your mind to the distinctions and you will stop making offensive statements. Repeat after me: “Not all Christians are evangelical. Many Christians are not evangelical and have little connection with evangelism. There are Christians who are absolutely nothing like the ones I know.” By the way, here in NYC, evangelism and fundamentalism? Not so big.</p>
<p>What I was backpedaling about was not making it clear enough when I was referring to the Evangelicals who DO proselytize and judge, and not to ‘all Christians.’ </p>
<p>You are completely misunderstanding me, despite my efforts to communicate. How many times do I have to say that I KNOW not all Christians are Evangelical???</p>
<p>Please re-read my posts, and you will see that I did make a distinction in most cases. In the cases in which it was not clear, I clarified in later posts.</p>
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<p>With other Christian religions, of course. Please educate me on the ‘many’ Christians who ‘break bread’ with Buddhists, Pagans, etc. without trying to convert them.</p>
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