<p>Leal, that’s the point. In MOST cases, but not all. It is not at all clear to me that you know the difference. If you would qualify your statements with something like “the Christians I know” I wouldn’t have a problem. I’m trying to make clear to you that your personal experience is not the same as everyone else’s. Again, if you have questions, ask, but remember that words do have meaning and yours has been pretty offensive in some posts on this thread. Part of my concern is the level of vitriol that you direct against those people. Why would anyone bother you to that extent?</p>
<p>Have I succeeded in conveying to you the distinction between Evangelicals trying to impose their religion on others (it’s part of their prime directive) and Christians in general who do NOT do THAT but DO still believe that only Christians go to ‘heaven?’</p>
<p>Also, how is your saying:</p>
<p>“In MOST cases, but not all.”</p>
<p>any different from MY saying:</p>
<p>“In GENERAL”</p>
<p>…?</p>
<p>"“In GENERAL”</p>
<p>Because my reference was to your posts in this thread, rather than to all Christians in the world. I can actually count your posts and see how many times you didn’t make the distinction, whereas the largest group of Christians is non-evangelical, so your not being familiar with them makes you unqualified to talk about most cases.</p>
<p>Ok, what statement(s) did I make about Christians ‘in general?’ </p>
<p>That they don’t respect other religions. I later defined what I meant at least 2-3 times, such as in post #219 in which I asked you “Please educate me on the ‘many’ Christians who ‘break bread’ with Buddhists, Pagans, etc. without trying to convert them” to which you have not replied.</p>
<p>What else have I said about non-Evangelical Christians?</p>
<p>You’re right Leal, I didn’t respond. I didn’t see that underneath the quote. I introduce you to the Moravian Church. We do it literally and do not try to convert anyone. Most mainline Protestant denominations don’t proselytize and most have inter-faith events. You must live in an area in which evangelicalism is the norm. If that’s the case, please understand that the rest of the Christian faith is nothing like that. Mainline Protestants tend to be extremely liberal, particularly in the northeast. Think of uppercrust women in the “Locust Valley Lockjaw” mode and you will see what I’m talking about.</p>
<p>I grew up attending a Southern Baptist church in southern Virginia. There were fundamentalists there, but no evangelicals. I didn’t know any evangelicals and really still don’t. Many people associate all Christians in the south with people like Falwell. His church was only an hour from where I grew up, but no one I knew thought much of him. The Southern Baptists are more conservative now as an organization than they were when I attended regularly, but the church of my childhood is still not evangelical. The majority of Christians are neither fundamentalists nor evangelical.</p>
<p>I most definitely do understand that many, if not most, mainstream Christians are not like that. I would even go farther and say that the Evangelicals are probably a minority among Christians, but tend to get more attention because they are more vocal than their numbers suggest.</p>
<p>“I most definitely do understand that many, if not most, mainstream Christians are not like that. I would even go farther and say that the Evangelicals are probably a minority among Christians, but tend to get more attention because they are more vocal than their numbers suggest.”</p>
<p>Exactly. Thank you for understanding.</p>
<p>Wading back in…I would really hate to see this thread degenerate. I think it is valuable to learn more about other religions. </p>
<p>I would like to point out though ,lealdragon, that Catholics DO believe that non-Catholics and non-Christians can go to heaven. I suspect that I am older than you are, and I assure you that I was taught that at a very early age. If you want to see it in black and white, check out the “Catechism of the Catholic Church.” I don’t have a copy in front of me, so I’ll have to paraphrase. It goes something like this "Those who through no fault of their own never have the opportunity to know Our Savior can be saved if they seek God with a sincere heart and try to do what is right. " Note: they do not have to believe in God–they just have to “seek Him.” </p>
<p>Sister Ignacio, my 6th grade teacher, was about as right wing as they come. However, she taught me this. Her example was Brazilian head hunters. They killed people and shrank their heads to worship their gods. While obviously killing people and shrinking their heads is objectively wrong, IF the headhunters did this with the INTENT of pleasing God, then they would be rewarded for this in the next life. Sister assured all of us that those headhunters would go to heaven IF they REALLY intended to please God. </p>
<p>Indeed, I know a Lutheran minister who converted to Catholicism and became a Catholic priest PRECISELY because he agreed with Catholic teaching on this point. </p>
<p>That’s what limbo–which is not taught to kids these days–was all about. The question arose “What if someone was not baptized but died at an age so young that they could not “earn” salvation through good works?” They went to Limbo. Limbo was a place filled with unbaptized babies. There weren’t any unbaptized adults there. They went upstairs or downstairs based on the INTENT with which they lived their lives and how well they follow that intent.</p>
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<p>I agree. Zoosermom and I are usually able to work things out. :)</p>
<p>Thanks for the clarification, jonri. I remember being taught essentially the same thing, but there was a distinction between the ‘heaven’ inhabited by baptized Catholics and that inhabited by non-Catholics. I seem to remember that ‘only Catholics could see the face of God in all His Glory.’</p>
<p>At any rate, it is certainly more merciful than some others who say that the ‘unsaved’ go to ‘hell’ for all eternity despite being kind, generous, loving people.</p>
<p>That’s an excellent example about the headhunters, btw. It really makes the point well and I’m glad to hear that this concept is being taught.</p>
<p>So Catholics no longer believe in Limbo? What do they now say happens to unbaptized babies?</p>
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<p>You are missing the point of jonri wrote – salvation through good intentions is available to those who have never heard the gospel. This is NOT available to those who have heard the gospel and rejected it. Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth, and the light. No one comes to the Father except through me.” You can indulge in any sort of intellectual gyrations you want to, but that’s what He said. Jesus did not teach that you could have good intentions and be saved. He did not teach that all paths can lead to heaven. He also did not say, “you can accept part of my teachings, but ignore those that you find uncomfortable, go ahead and design your own faith.” He did not teach that anyone could be God. He also did not abandon a wife and family to go seek his own truth, and He did not counsel others to do so.</p>
<p>From a Christian perspective, it’s not about being kind, generous, and loving, it’s about believing in Him, and accepting His salvation (John 3:16).</p>
<p>The thing that an most non-Christians and a disappointing number of Christians miss is the obligation to try personally to become a new person in Christ after accepting the Gospel. Critics who accuse some Christians of not following their beliefs in their own lives are right on. This is a criticism that a lot of Christians deserve. I’ve also known hundreds of Christians who are humble followers doing their best to live in service to others. It’s not about perfection. It’s not about achieving kindness, generosity, and love of others. Christianity is accepting that we all fall short of deserving God’s grace, accepting that Christ is the path to God, and striving to overcome our sinful natures. Being critical, judgmental, and harsh are inconsistent with Christianity. The ONLY thing separating Christians from non-Christians is faith – not the essential character of humans. </p>
<p>Part of the duty of a Christian is to spread the word of the Gospels, and bring people into fellowship with God. If your best friend was standing with their back to certain death, wouldn’t you warn them? </p>
<p>If you don’t like how some people do it, remember what Paul wrote in Romans, “All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” That verse doesn’t say “all have sinned except Christians” or even “all have sinned except members of the First Correct Church of Springfield.” To understand Christianity, you really have to understand Romans 3:23 and 5:8, which says, “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”</p>
<p>The more a self-described Christian proclaims to be better than others, the clearer the sign that they simply don’t understand their own faith. </p>
<p>That’s what evangelism is all about, Charlie Brown.</p>
<p>WashDad, thank you for so clearly illustrating my point.</p>
<p>zoosermom: NOW do you understand why I can safely and accurately state that it is within the nature of Christianity itself to not respect other religions? (‘respect’ as in acknowledge them as valid paths to unity with the Divine.) WashDad made it very clear: It is an inherent part of Christianity to believe that only Christians go to ‘heaven.’ HOW they define being Christian and how they define any exceptions to that may differ, but the main point does not.</p>
<p>Lealdragon, did you miss his last line? And his faith is not mine.</p>
<p>I am not an evangelical. Others here are not evangelical. Millions of Christians are not evangelical. Again, neither you nor WashDad speak for all Christians. And just when I thought we had a meeting of the minds. Sigh.</p>
<p>[What</a> We Believe * Moravian Church in North America](<a href=“Moravian Church In America”>Moravian Church In America)</p>
<p>The Moravian Church has stood for basic religious principles for more than 500 years. Through these years the church has often put into written form the precepts of its faith and practice in what is known as the “Covenant for Christian Living.” [PDF] </p>
<p>Moravians recognize the example of Christ’s life and proclaim that Jesus Christ is Lord. Living the Christian life depends not only on our own effort, but upon God our Father, who in Jesus Christ accepts us as heirs of God and strengthens and sustains us. In baptism we are united with Christ in his death and resurrection, so we have died to sin and should walk in newness of life. We realize that our Christian faith must continually be nourished if it is to remain living and vital. Therefore, we desire to grow in our Christian lives through family devotions, personal prayer and study, and the opportunities for spiritual development offered by the Church. </p>
<p>We deem it a sacred responsibility and genuine opportunity to be faithful stewards of all God has entrusted to us: our time, our talents, and our financial resources. We view all of life as a sacred trust to be used wisely. </p>
<p>Realizing that God has called us from many and varied backgrounds, we recognize the possibility of disagreements or differences. Often these differences enrich the Church, but sometimes they divide. We consider it to be our responsibility to demonstrate within the congregational life the unity and togetherness created by God who made us one. How well we accomplish this will be a witness to our community as to the validity of our faith. </p>
<p>Moravians support collegial experiences with children of God in other Christian churches, and carefully avoid all disputes, respecting opinions and ceremonies peculiar to one or another Church. We recognize that through the grace of Christ different denominations have received many gifts and that the Church of Christ may be enriched by these many and varied contributions. It is our desire that we may learn from one another and rejoice together in the riches of the love of Christ and the manifold wisdom of God. We welcome every step that brings us nearer the goal of unity in Him. In this fellowship we cooperate with other churches in the support of public charities or Christian enterprises, which have a just claim upon us as followers of the Lord Jesus Christ. </p>
<p>A BASIC MOTTO
In accepting other creeds of the Christian Church (such as the Apostles’ Creed, Nicene Creed, the Augsburg Confession) and in its practice, the Moravian Church has always stood by its motto: “In essentials, unity; in nonessentials, liberty; and in all things, love.” </p>
<p>THE SACRAMENTS
The Moravian Church recognized the sacraments of baptism and of holy communion. The usual mode of baptism is sprinkling and the church administers the sacrament in the name of the Triune God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit). In the case of infant baptism, the sacrament carries with it the responsibility of parents, child and congregation. Through baptism the individual receives a pledge of the forgiveness of sin and admission into the covenant of God through the blood of Christ. Children may be baptized as a sign and pledge to them of the promise of Christ that theirs “is the kingdom of Heaven.” Youth and adults confirm their baptismal covenant or are received by adult baptism when they make a profession of faith. </p>
<p>In respect to the sacrament of holy communion, the Moravian Church does not try to define the mystery of Christ’s presence in the communion elements, but recognizes that the believer participates in a unique act of covenant with Christ as Savior and with other believers in Christ. The Moravian service of holy communion is a service of praise and prayer (with hymns being sung as the elements are distributed to all communicants); of fellowship (with the right hand of fellowship extended at the beginning and close of the service); and of special covenant with Christ and with each other</p>
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<p>Thank you for sharing this info about your church.</p>
<p>Do they also support collegial experiences with children of God in other NON-Christian churches?</p>
<p>Yes Leal we do! We have a seder every year, for just one example. It is not part of the statement of faith, though, because that must be about Christianity. (Which I actually told you earlier on the thread, by the way, about breaking bread with non-Christians, but you had to go for the gotcha, huh?) The bottom line is that you will never make every Christian fit into the evangelical mold, so you might as well just stop trying.</p>
<p>I’m not trying to ‘make every Christian fit into the evangelical mold’ and I stated repeatedly that I don’t believe all Christians are like Evangelicals.</p>
<p>I’m glad to hear that your church is open to discussion with non-Christian churches without trying to convert them. That is refreshing.</p>
<p>"zoosermom: NOW do you understand why I can safely and accurately state that it is within the nature of Christianity itself to not respect other religions? "</p>
<p>Did you or did you not post this today?</p>
<p>Yes I did. I also stated that there were some exceptions: Namely, Unity and Gnosticism, and I asked you to let me know if there were any others. You did, and I am glad to hear that.</p>
<p>If you come across any others still, please do let me know. </p>
<p>I also defined ‘respect’ as ‘acknowledging other non-Christian spiritual paths as valid paths to God.’</p>
<p>btw, you didn’t quite answer my question. You said your church enters into ‘collegial experiences’ but can you specifically say that they recognize that Buddhists and Pagans can go to ‘heaven’ without becoming Christians on their deathbed?</p>
<p>(since ‘heaven’ is a Christian concept, I am just curious just exactly what you meant by ‘collegial experiences’.)</p>
<p>Leal, the fact of exceptions makes invalidates the “nature of Christianity” claim on its face.</p>
<p>We absolutely believe that non-Christians go to heaven without conversion. We believe that all people are children of God and that salvation (entering heaven or whatever each individual believes) is never earned or lost. It simply exists for all mankind from Jesus’ sacrifice of his life for our redemption. To make this clear: everyone goes to heaven or otherwise enters into the presence of God or enlightenment. Everyone.</p>
<p>Collegial experiences means exactly what it says it does. It involves thinks like breaking the fast during Ramadan, participating in a seder, etc.</p>