<p>Wow, that is really awesome! Thanks for the clarification!</p>
<p>I can see why you took offense. I only hope you can understand how rare this is for a Christian church. I’ve never heard of this from any mainstream Christian religion. Usually there is some criteria like ‘accept Jesus on their deathbed’ or ‘get baptized at the last minute.’ I’ve never heard of any mainstream Christian church that accepted Buddhists or Pagans being united with God while staying Buddhists/Pagans.</p>
<p>Leal, it’s not that rare. Perhaps just rare in your experience. as I said I know nothing about evangelicals.</p>
<p>Here is a taste of what creeps me out about the more extreme variety of Evangelicals:</p>
<p>[Max</a> Blumenthal: Rapture Ready: The Unauthorized Christians United for Israel Tour - Politics on The Huffington Post](<a href=“Rapture Ready: The Unauthorized Christians United for Israel Tour | HuffPost Latest News”>Rapture Ready: The Unauthorized Christians United for Israel Tour | HuffPost Latest News)</p>
<p>See also:</p>
<p>[Article</a> | The American Prospect](<a href=“http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?articleId=11541]Article”>http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?articleId=11541)</p>
<p>(excerpt)</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>leal, I was was a little disheartened to see where this thread has gone, but feel I have to make one more post to say that your categorization of so many Christians makes me sad that so many people seem to have been discourteous to you in the past, such that you have generalized their behaviour to “most Evangelicals”. Christians should not only try to practice their Christianity, but they should also recognize the value of simple courtesy. People who treat Christians or non-Christians disrespectfully need to re-read the Gospels - and also listen to Miss Manners.</p>
<p>As for whether non-Christians go to heaven: I am a member of a mainstream Christian church. Someone asked our minister if non-Christians go to Heaven. He responded by asking this question: if a Buddhist tries to jump over the Grand Canyon, and only jumps 10 feet, what will happen? He will fall to his death. If a Christian tries to jump over the Grand Canyon, and jumps 20 feet, what will happen? He will fall to his death. We are all sinners and saved by grace. In other words, it’s kind of a moot point, and not really our main concern or our major issue.</p>
<p>I agree that it’s sad. You don’t know me - I am just someone on an internet forum you will never meet - but I honestly despise generalizations. And here I am generalizing. Which, if you knew me, you would find very telling. Despite the fact that I repeatedly tried to qualify my statements, and acknowledge the exceptions I’ve met (like my neighbors who are Evangelicals but really lovely, kind people, or my co-worker who used to go pray with me in the bathroom whenever I was upset about something), it is true that the negative experiences I’ve had with Evangelicals FAR outnumber the positive ones.</p>
<p>“negative experiences I’ve had with Evangelicals FAR outnumber the positive ones”</p>
<p>I absolutely believe that. Just remember that in many places, there are few if any evangelicals.</p>
<p>The problem with most fundamentalists of ANY of the world’s religions is that they choose as “fundamental” those elements of their faiths which divide rather than those which unite. </p>
<p>What would happen if those elements that were seen as fundamental were charity, forgiveness, compassion, understanding, and neighborliness, and the other elements were considered secondary?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Well said!</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I read what you linked to on the Moravian Church, and I also read the 20-page “The Moravian Covenant for Christian Living” document on the same Website. The published documents of the church read like a standard doctrinal statement for most Christian denominations, including salvation only through Christ, and a call to witness to non-believers. Here’s an excerpt:</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>and </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>and the requirement to spread the Gospel (engage in evangelism):</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Frankly, I’ve never read a Christian doctrinal statement that did not include these precepts. Christianity is a faith meant to be shared. This does not mean that you are not to respect individuals, and in fact the Great Commission at the end of Matthew is one of Christ’s clearest instructions to his followers to love all people enough to share the Gospel with them. </p>
<p>The written concept of collegialism in the documents I read were aimed at other Christian denominations. I couldn’t find any evidence of “everyone goes to heaven” or that salvation was available through other paths than belief in Christ. If I missed something in the doctrine, I apologize.</p>
<p>It’s kind of a side note here, but I am very impressed with the Moravian commitment to the catholic church. Denominationalism is a pernicious force in the church, and I’d like to see fewer people majoring in the minors.</p>
<p>Oh, mini! I really like that post of yours. Really like it. Good job. I am going to steal it and swear it’s mine. ;)</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I swear, the world is irony right to the core.</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.valpo.edu/geomet/pics/geo200/religion/church_bodies.gif[/url]”>http://www.valpo.edu/geomet/pics/geo200/religion/church_bodies.gif</a>
<a href=“http://www.valpo.edu/geomet/pics/geo200/religion/adherents.gif[/url]”>http://www.valpo.edu/geomet/pics/geo200/religion/adherents.gif</a>
[Largest</a> Religious Groups in the USA](<a href=“http://www.adherents.com/rel_USA.html#gallup]Largest”>http://www.adherents.com/rel_USA.html#gallup)
I think this column is worth reading
[Articles</a> of Faith: Christian stereotypes detract from ability to help others](<a href=“http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/343602_faith15.html]Articles”>http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/343602_faith15.html)</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>“The written concept of collegialism in the documents I read were aimed at other Christian denominations. I couldn’t find any evidence of “everyone goes to heaven” or that salvation was available through other paths than belief in Christ. If I missed something in the doctrine, I apologize.”</p>
<p>I have texts in hand. I will find out if they are online. I’m also not completely clear on how current the website actually is. But I’ll find out that as well. The core belief is that salvation comes through Christ’s actions, not ours. Small distinction, I know.</p>
<p>"Frankly, I’ve never read a Christian doctrinal statement that did not include these precepts. Christianity is a faith meant to be shared. "</p>
<p>Yes that’s right, but sharing isn’t always proselytizing and not attempting to convert anyone. The distinction is in living, personally, in the described manner. I’m having trouble articulating, but what I’m saying is exactly what you posted, but I think it’s not exactly how you’re interpreting. I apologize for that and will try to find a way to better articulate.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Actually, it’s quite a big distinction. The issue many of us have with Evangelical proselytizing is when they tell us WE (our action) must ‘accept Jesus’ else we burn in ‘hell’ forever.</p>
<p>Personally I wouldn’t want to spend all eternity with a being so cruel that his only ‘plan’ involves a lottery - only those lucky enough or smart enough to choose the right religion get to go to ‘heaven’ while all those kind, loving Buddhists & Pagans who earnestly believe their religion is totally fine go to ‘hell.’</p>
<p>So yeah, it’s a huge distinction.</p>
<p>(if you listen carefully you can probably hear me taking in a really deep breath here…)
Zoosermom originally wrote:
</p>
<p>Actually, it’s a huge distinction. As I understand it, Christianity and the doctrine of “salvation” is based upon the idea that nobody is perfect and able to achieve salvation on his/her own. No amount of “good works” will allow one to “achieve” salvation. That is what I have been taught, any way. And I do know that, try as I might to do good things, I always mess up at some point and I appreciate the fact that someone better than I (Christ) has stepped in for me. As the bible says (and this is a paraphrase), it is by grace that we are saved…not through works of our own.</p>
<p>I have not been a Christ-follower all my life. I could have written this (but lealdragon did):
</p>
<p>Exactly how I felt. What I eventually decided was that the evidence for Christ actually being a “real” person was too great to ignore. Then, I had to decide if he was what he said he was or he was insane…there really is no middle ground there. Obviously, I decided to believe the former.</p>
<p>Here is where I guess I differ from those “Evangelicals” that are so villified: It’s not up to me to get in anyone’s face and make them feel guilty about their own belief system. If they need help, I am to be sensitive to that and help. If they need a friend, I am to be that. I am (as a Christ-follower) to be the “example” on earth of what Christ is and how He would act if he were here today (by the way, I fail miserably at this most of the time…).</p>
<p>I have decided that it is not up to me to make a decision about anyone’s “salvation” or if they will be in heaven or not. There are just some things I don’t understand and all the different faiths out there that are in such direct conflict is a big one. I just know that, for me, the evidence was too big to ignore and it’s made a huge difference in my life. And if anyone asks, I will tell them…</p>
<p>leal - the part that bothers you about all this bothers me too, except I never looked at it as being cruel that God excludes those who do not believe in him or or his son. It sounds like ego to me. If God is powerful enough to have created heaven and earth in the time that it takes me to give my house a good cleaning, then why would he give a hoot if I believed it or not? Now I can understand the creator caring if I am a good steward of his creation and if I am kind and generous to his other creations, but this believing thing just seems so petty, so human-like, so Zeus-like. I choose to believe that, if there is a creator, he (or she of course) is above all that; that he is a confident God who doesn’t need to be worshipped as much as some people think. There is good in every religion - it’s focusing on believing more than doing that causes the problems.</p>
<p>cartera: Amen! That’s it exactly! Well said!!!</p>
<p>I believe in a loving and merciful God, who has allowed for the stupidity of his creation. To expect someone to ‘believe’ is just petty. God is above all that. A loving God would NEVER sentence anyone, much less more than half the population, to eternal suffering, for ANY reason! A mere mortal such as myself couldn’t even do that - I’d try to find some way to rehabilitate that mass murderer - surely God has much more compassion and creativity than I do???</p>
<p>No offense to anyone, just my opinion, but I find the whole premise of salvation thru Jesus to be an oversimplified concept that does not reconcile with a loving God.</p>
<p>This does NOT make Jesus a liar or insane - remember, most of the new testament was written YEARS after Jesus’ death. Not to mention the fact that those words which they take so literally were translated from another language. Believers in the bible are basing their entire lives, including how they treat others, on passages attributed to Jesus but written by HUMANS.</p>
<p>I believe in following the living SPIRIT of Christ, not a book written by humans. Sure, there is much wisdom and guidance in the book, but it’s when people take it so literally that it causes trouble. If something gets in the way of LOVE, it is to be questioned. The essence of Jesus’ message was love and peace and forgiveness. It totally boggles my mind that some people justify judgment and even war based on isolated passages of a book, which are in direct conflict with Jesus’ message and character.</p>
<p>Excellent Cartera! Thank you for posting that. </p>
<p>I also don’t think that it is my place to presume to know what is pleasing in God’s eyes. Whether it might be my religion or Buddhism or the athiest down the block who is kind and giving.</p>
<p>We are all God’s children and that’s all I need to know.</p>
<p>From Post 259 .We are all God’s children and that’s all I need to know.</p>
<p>That may or may not be true, but the fact remains according to Christian teachings in order to be save one must, I repeat, must adhere to John 3:16.</p>
![http://www.valpo.edu/geomet/pics/geo200/religion/church_bodies.gif[/url]](http://www.valpo.edu/geomet/pics/geo200/religion/church_bodies.gif%5B/url%5D){kind=link}
![http://www.valpo.edu/geomet/pics/geo200/religion/adherents.gif[/url]](http://www.valpo.edu/geomet/pics/geo200/religion/adherents.gif%5B/url%5D){kind=link}
