Wait, you still believe that sexual orientation and identity are “decisions made”?
^^
Exactly. That and the insistence that trans people are defined by sex organs rather than spirit/mind/identity.
It was obvious since toddlerhood that my daughters best friend was male. "She"would get so upset that she became physically ill when his mother forced him into a dress. B always identified as male and is masculine in behavior and attitude.
And please refer to conservative Chrisians as conservative Christians. They do not speak for all who follow Christ.
Even many, MANY conservative Christians are against these types of laws. It is a very small minority of people who call themselves Christian who are for this law.
“That seems disrespectful of the more modest of the other 99% of students that are now forced to be fine with males in the locker room (or females in the male locker room).”
But there are no males in the female locker room or females in the locker room? Trans women are women and trans men are men.
“the small minority of those who believe they are a different gender.”
Trans people don’t ‘believe’ they are a different gender. Again trans women are women and trans men are men.
Also to clarify, just because I disagree with Christians (and other religions) citing their beliefs as reasons to oppose the bill doesn’t mean I hate Christians. I went to school in a religious community, many of my friends are religious, and my trans brother is very Christian.
Wholly apart from the question of whether gender identity and sexual orientation are “immutable” or a “choice” (and obviously I don’t believe the latter), it really shouldn’t matter. Immutability is not a requirement for a class of people to be protected by anti-discrimination laws. Religion is the obvious example. Apparently, under this poster’s logic, it would be illegal to discriminate against a Christian or a Jew, but perfectly OK to discriminate against someone who chose to convert from Christianity to Judaism. This example is not my invention, by the way; it comes from Schroer v. Billington, 577 F. Supp. 2d 293 (D.D.C. 2008). See this description of that decision on the EEOC’s website:
https://www.eeoc.gov/eeoc/newsroom/wysk/lgbt_examples_decisions.cfm (citing many other decisions ruling that trans people are protected by anti-discrimination laws, whether directly under the Title VII prohibition of sex discrimination,and/or under Price Waterhouse v. Hopkins sex-stereotyping theory).
Yes @TranquilMind – are you saying that it’s not OK to deny rights based on “immutable characteristic of race” but it’s OK to deny rights based on “decisions made” ?
And where do you draw the line at “decision made?” For example, a woman choosing to live like a man without a sex change should have rights, but the one who undergoes a sex change shouldn’t?
“Not exactly, until we start labeling babies differently a gender is established at birth based on biological factors even with babies born that are ambiguous and generally a decision is made based on biological factors very shortly after birth.”
I think statements like this are telling, it indicates the real mindset of those who oppose transgender women being allowed to use restrooms, and it is based in the idea that a transgender woman is a man, period, because they were born that way, and biology triumphs all (the great state of texas refused and I believe still refuses to allow transgender people to modify their BC’s, because their sex is their sex and that is it, men are men, woman are woman (and of course, the same people if you press them will likely cite you chapter and verse, about God making man and woman, etc).
And what this all boils down to is not men in suits using the restroom claiming to be transgender, or gawking teenage boys, it is based in the idea that transgender women are really men and as such are going into the restroom to gawk at women or worse, since of course all men are like that, they are predators, etc…(which is pathetic on its own grounds). The problem with the argument about men using the women’s restroom under the cover of being transgendered is that this is not just as hypothetical, the opponents keep arguing this, but the reality is in many places transgender women use women’s rooms, have been for a long time, and not one incident like this has happened.
This kind of reminds me of the fight over same sex marriage, those wanting to appear moderate who said it was about the term marriage, how that meant something to them, how it was a religious term. No matter how people pointed out that marriage was not a religious term only, that the term marriage had weight to it, that by not using that term it would hurt same sex couples, they stuck to that party line…and then it became “if we allow same sex marriage, my church will be forced to marry same sex couples”, which was even more ludicrous. That made them seem like they weren’t anti gay, but the reality of it was they simply didn’t like gay couples having the full rights of marriage, and used that as an excuse.
The real explanation is this was aimed at transgender women, and it was because those citing this see transgender women as men, even worse perverted or mentally ill men, who will act like construction workers seeing a pretty woman going down the street and being rude. The issue of seeing their penis? This is because they assume that like men in a locker room (or many or some men), they will want to ‘expose themselves’ to women. It is the idea that somehow a transgender woman wants to use the rest room because she is a ‘typical boy/man’ who wants to leer, will.
Want the tell on this? The law as written would force a transgender male (someone who started out as a woman) to use the women’s room…including a transgender man who has been on testosterone. Ever see the way young men are on testosterone during their teen and 20’s? Guess what folks, transgender men when they take Testosterone are just like that, the sex drive goes into hyperdrive and if anyone was going to act like a hormonal teen boy, it would be them…so how come women aren’t afraid of that? Why? Because they see that person as a woman, they totally ignore what hormones do, so no one is talking about transgender woman.
And let me ask the naysayers this, while it is a lot less likely, there are women out there who are voyeurs or perverts of one kind or another (to use the words of the idiot opponents), how come no one is complaining a woman could claim to be trans and enter a men’s restroom? Oh, wait, but that isn’t a problem, because men would enjoy that gag.
As far as the worries about the ‘period of discovery’, do you even know what that means, what transition is like? Transition is not the day you decide to live as a woman or man, transition is a process of discovery, that takes years, and yes, you don’t know the outcome. But what does that change? A transgender woman in transition, or a transgender man, if they are exploring their new gender, exploring living that way part time (which most do), they aren’t doing it as some sort of fetish, they aren’t doing it like trying a new hairstyle or trying out a new pair of shoes or a new tv show, once someone gets to that point ,where they get the courage to go out in public, they are trying to fit in, they are trying to simply live as they think they are. They won’t, I guarantee you that, when they are presenting as male want to use a women’s room (or a man’s room), I don’t think you know how scared, how hesitant someone is in that mode, and the last thing they want to do is stand out,or make a nuisance of themselves. If one day they are presenting as a woman, and the next as a male, they have the same goal, not to have an accident. Do people think that somehow when presenting they will have the mindset of a lustful male? I don’t understand why the back and forth even matters, if someone is presenting as a woman, they likely are doing so because they want to be accepted as one (and transgender women are neither crossdressers nor fetishistic crossdressers).
What this boils down to is people who see transgender women as men, and it is that I am almost 100% certain that is driving this craziness, that they feel uncomfortable around men being in a woman’s room (which I can understand),
And in terms of the people passing this being bigots, that is pretty much QED. That law forbids any town or city in North Carolina from passing any local laws granting LGBT people protections and that tells you the mindset of those doing it.
If they really were worried about men pretending to be transgender and going into restrooms, they could have very easily increased the penalties for sexual misconduct in public places, but the fact they didn’t do that makes me certain the basis of this law was to allow law enforcement to harass or arrest a transgender woman if some idiot decided they were trans and squawked like a rooster with its ‘danglies’ caught in barbed wire sigh. This isn’t about the idiotic fear men will use this to go into restrooms, it is transphobic women and men wanting to send a message to transgender women, that we don’t think you are ‘real’. The fact that there even is an issue with bathrooms says a lot, as far as I know a women’s room is a place to go relieve yourselves, clean up afterwords, it isn’t a place to socialize, flirt, sit on divans and drink tea (when I hear bathrooms referred to as a ‘private space for women’, that is what I envision lol).
Seems like this issue is hitting a lot of raw nerves on both sides. I have no interest in taking sides. What I am interested in is if the way a person identifies (a opposed to the person’s physical equipment) determines which bathroom to use, will that also determine whether that person plays on the female or male basketball/track/swimming/whatever team at a school or college? Will a physical male be able to claim female status, play on a female high school team, and get a college scholarship to play on a women’s college team?
@moooop The Olympics, the US track and field association, and the NCAA (among others) have already ruled on these issues.
http://www.outsports.com/2016/1/21/10812404/transgender-ioc-policy-new-olympics
http://www.usatf.org/About/Privacy—Other-Policies/Transgender-Transsexual.aspx
http://www.ncaa.com/news/ncaa/article/2011-09-13/new-policy-transgender-athletes
I am not so sure that the conservative Christians against this law are against it because of the transgender bathroom issue, I think a lot of them may be against it because it contained a lot of provisions the hard right was drooling to do, it basically invalidated any local laws protecting LGBT people (something I am sure many Conservative Christians like), but it also invalidated protections for veterans, it banned raising the minimum wage and a raft of other provisions that the hard right used this pill to ram through, so more than a few of them might be protesting it based on self interest. That said, there are also a lot of more liberal people who probably support this, if not openly, there are a lot of women, like some of the posters on here, who are squicked by trans women, and there are the feminists and some elements of the lesbian community who probably support this, too, bigotry knows no bounds.
“Well, except they have exactly zero similarities. One is based on the immutable characteristic of race, the other is based on decisions made.” Besides the fact that sexual orientation and gender identity are not ‘choices’, lifestyle choice is where you live and what car you drive and so forth, race itself is not immutable, in the sense that race itself is a construct. The fact that people have assigned meaning to race is a construct, race itself basically has no intrinsic meaning in any kind of way, genetically the difference between the racial groups we talk about is trivially small, lot less than 1%. That doesn’t mean I think that race as a construct isn’t (sadly) important, but rather that we wrote into law protections against racial discrimination for something that is totally in the minds of people. The reason that transgender rights or gay rights or the rights of minorities, perceived or otherwise, are all the same is they are human rights. Religion is not immutable, religion is man created (whether divinely inspired I’ll leave up to people who believe to figure it out), yet we protect that. We protect freedom of speech, freedom of expression, not because they are immutable characteristics, the beliefs that underly religion or the thoughts we express as speech are not inate, they change, go away, come back, etc.
Just for the record you took a quote of mine and used it out of context in post 366. You will find much earlier in this thread that I am not opposed to co-ed bathrooms with stall doors. I do not want this law to be expanded to include changing rooms like one finds in a gym or spa. Please be careful how you use people’s words in controversial threads.
The only reason for building a wall between us and Canada is the cold weather they insist on sending us:)
Snowbunny, thanks for the info. There was no info on high schoolers, and if I’m reading it right, the NCAA is ok with anatomical males competing against women in the regular season, but not in championship play. Sounds kind of odd, no? Wonder how long before that oddity gets challenged in court, now that these matters are getting so much attention…
And to keep out the hoards of Americans trying to sneak over the border if a certain orange-faced man becomes president…
From @snowybuny 's IOC link:
The fact that the IOC requires a significant level of commitment to remain as the declared gender, suggests that it too recognizes the potential for gender cheaters.
@moooop No problem. The link I posted said that schools can make their own policies during the regular season. This link from the NCAA is AWESOME and talks about their suggested best practices for schools: http://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/files/Transgender_Handbook_2011_Final.pdf
Also a quote from that pdf for those curious: “Changing Areas, Toilets, Showers — Transgender student-athletes should be able to use the locker room, shower, and toilet facilities in accordance with the student’s gender identity. Every locker room should have some private, enclosed changing areas, showers, and toilets for use by any athlete who desires them. When requested by a transgender student-athlete, schools should provide private, separate changing, showering, and toilet facilities for the student’s use, but transgender students should not be required to use separate facilities.”
I cannot find high school specific information, assumingly it varies from school to school.
Do you not believe that sexual experiences in your formative years can be key to preference later? Serious question, LasMa.
A crutch, by any other name. As is using any LGBT thread as a horse for Christian beating. Can’t have one without all three.
The problem with your statement is it leaves out a lot. Can sexual experiences in your formative years drive who you end up with later? Sure. However, the problem with your statement is the idea that somehow this is true for all people, and that is crap. Sexual orientation itself is not a preference, that is the lie the religious right keep trying to put out there, with the idea “see, you don’t have to be gay”. Some people may experience trauma in early life and end up with a same sex partner because of that, but I’ll let you in on a little secret, if you track those people’s histories, they are bisexual, they have had experience with both and settle with one of the other. The idea that sexual orientation is caused by environment has been blown out of the water, every attempt at 'conversion therapy" is a dismal failure,when you track what happens, less than 5% end up staying with an opposite sex partner, which is basically a failure. Not to mention that if early sexual encounters or abuse caused people to be gay ,given how many people experience that, a lot more than the current level of the population that is gay would be, it would be 20 or 30%, not 10% or so.
As far as claiming this is about phobia, do you know what the definition of a phobia is? It is a reaction to something that when investigated, has no logical basis. The anti gay crowd claimed that if kids grew up with two mommies or two daddies they would be hurt, that the kids would have issues, that they needed a mom and day…and guess what, every study of kids raised by gay parents show they are indifferentiable from kids with straight parents. With the NC Bathroom law, it comes down to being phobic as well. The whole argument about men using the bathroom to look at woman has been proven patently false when ‘easy access’ in a large number of city and towns has shown it simply doesn’t happen, there is no correlation between bathroom access and an increase in rape or sexual assault, nothing…so if you don’t have any basis to prove the harm, it is a phobia. Women talk about being nervous being in a bathroom with someone with male genitals, but where precisely would they see these? They are saying they are uncomfortable around transgender woman, but cannot come up with a reason for it, they keep saying they can’t use a restroom with a man in it…but a transgender woman is not a man, they aren’t exposing themselves, and they likely just want to go and get out of there…so where is the logic to that? The gay haters for years claimed that allowing same sex marriage would destroy society, would ‘weaken marriage’, but could come up with no proof it did, and in open court when Prop 8 was overturned, those defending the ban admitted it had no logical basis behind it, that it was strictly about religious belief…which means basically it was based on being phobic.
If someone defends a law like the NC bathroom law, and cannot quantify logically why they think it should be law, it is phobic, it is discrimination without any basis to it. I keep hearing the same thing, men will use the law to go into women’s rooms and leer, that it will lead to assault, but that has been blown out of the water by fact.“It should be law because I feel uncomfortable with someone with male genitals in the restroom”…so someone’s discomfort is a reason to make law now, so if a white woman doesn’t feel comfortable around black women black women shouldn’t be allowed in? Laws like Jim Crow, which whites claimed had all kinds of reasons behind it, was often defended with “white folks don’t feel comfortable around black folks,and vice versa”, was that logical, or was it phobic? Women feel uncomfortable with transgender women in the bathroom because of a phobia that has no rational basis, it is a feeling generated by some notion that someone with male genitals who is otherwise a woman is a threat of some sort, and it has no basis. If we made laws around people being uncomfortable about things, we wouldn’t be able to do much, claustrophobics would ban subways and elevators, we would ban alcohol for those who consider it the devil’s work, we wouldn’t be able to watch anything above the level of Sesame Street on tv for those who feel uncomfortable with programming above the level of children, and so forth if we did that.
As far as “Christian bashing” goes, the predominant strain of anti LGBT people is that the overwhelming majority of them are conservative Christians, if you chart the level of Anti gay feeling with the self reported level of being religious, it is a classic correlation curve, the deeper the depth of self reported religious belief, the larger the level of being anti LGBT, do a little research , the data is out there…and, more importantly, when they look at those claiming they are religious, the people who say they are religious and pro lgbt belong to progressive or mainstream chuches, not conservative ones, among conservative christians it is something like 85% of them are anti lgbt…so saying that being anti gay or anti trans is somehow Christian bashing is belied by the facts.
As long as you keep insisting that a trans woman using a women’s bathroom makes it co-ed – because, as you strongly implied elsewhere, you think that trans women are men – I don’t want that kind of “support.”
It is a more complicated than that, as for some, they say it s a day-by-day issue for them. Surreal in many respects. At some point, it cannot just be the person’s word because then anyone can do it, and no one can tell the difference between a transgender and an actual female or male. .
http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2016/05/17/shopper-upset-man-allowed-to-use-womens-dressing-room-in-ross/