<p>Wally, while I’m not familiar with many of the theatres listed there, I will say that performing at Playwrights Horizons, New York International Fringe Festival, Steppenwolf, and Chatauqua would be every bit as impressive as performing at the OSF.</p>
<p>Not according to Time Magazine; They ranked the top five theater companies in the country and none of those names were listed and OSF was #2. In fact OSF was named the third best place to see Shakespeare in the world behind The Royal Shakespeare Company and Shakespears Globe.</p>
<p>While OSF may not be well known to East Coasters they sell 400,000 tickets annualy and have a season budget of $22 million. They offer 7 and 10 month contracts and it is a dream gig for a stage actor. They can and do attract the best of the best.</p>
<p>Fishbowl, Are those two former HS classmates who are going to RU on CC? D and followyourdreams want to communicate with them.</p>
<p>I’m not basing my opinion on Time Magazine. I’m basing it on decades of having friends and family members in the theatre ‘biz’. Rankings, of any sort, are interesting reading but it’s important to evaluate what criteria are being used, etc. I’m sure that OSF is a wonderful place to see theatre and I, in no way, meant to imply otherwise but there are many wonderful places to see theatre and the ones which I mentioned earlier are very well-respected to anyone who is in this business. You may want to include Ontario’s Stratford Festival in your list of places to see Shakespeare. :)</p>
<p>By the way, the young man at OSF who is a UM/Guthrie grad is Adam Yazbeck. He’s a friend of one of my D’s roommates.</p>
<p>It wasnt Time Magazine that did the ranking. It was two seasoned theater professionals who wrote the piece that was printed in the magazine. And the results of thier attempt to name the best of the best didnt surpise me or anyone that I know. Its a good article if you want to read it email me. </p>
<p>Ha your right! There is a UM guy at OSF. He is brand new. He played Olivia? I wonder where that was. that tells you how competative it is at OSF he was cast as two ensamble roles. thats just what you have to do with them though, get your foot in the door. Good luck with him. I may look him up when we are there in two weeks. I have learned tons by speaking with thier actors. Last summer I spent 2 hours talking with a CMU grad. Very enlightening.</p>
<p>As niklick said, the Minnesota/Guthrie program only has three years of graduates in terms of looking at where they have gone onto work and so that cannot be compared to decades of graduates’ placements at other colleges. Further, he/she mentions Oregon Shakespeare as one place where graduates HAVE worked. </p>
<p>As far as Time Magazine, their top five picks are for REGIONAL theater, just to be accurate. To be fair, the Guthrie Theater was ONE of the five, along with OSF. </p>
<p>Also, here is another list you may wish to consult, the winners of the Tony Award for Best Regional Theater:</p>
<p>1976 ? Arena Stage (Washington, D.C.)
1977 ? Mark Taper Forum (Los Angeles, California)
1978 ? The Long Wharf Theatre (New Haven, Connecticut)
1979 ? American Conservatory Theater (San Francisco, California)
1980 ? Actors Theatre of Louisville (Louisville, Kentucky)
1981 ? Trinity Square Repertory Company (Providence, Rhode Island)
1982 ? The Guthrie Theatre (Minneapolis, Minnesota)
1983 ? Oregon Shakespeare Festival Association (Ashland, Oregon)
1984 ? Old Globe Theatre (San Diego, California)
1985 ? Steppenwolf Theater Company (Chicago, Illinois)
1986 ? American Repertory Theater (Cambridge, Massachusetts)
1987 ? San Francisco Mime Troupe (San Francisco, California)
1988 ? South Coast Repertory (Costa Mesa, California)
1989 ? Hartford Stage Company (Hartford, Connecticut)
1990 ? Seattle Repertory Theatre (Seattle, Washington)
1991 ? Yale Repertory Theater (New Haven, Connecticut)
1992 ? The Goodman Theatre (Chicago, Illinois)
1993 ? La Jolla Playhouse (San Diego, California)
1994 ? McCarter Theatre (Princeton, New Jersey)
1995 ? Goodspeed Opera House (East Haddam, Connecticut)
1996 ? Alley Theatre of Houston (Houston, Texas)
1997 ? Berkeley Repertory Theatre (Berkeley, California)
1998 ? Denver Center Theatre Company (Denver, Colorado)
1999 ? Crossroads Theatre Company (New Brunswick, New Jersey)
2000 ? Utah Shakespearean Festival (Cedar City, Utah)
2001 ? Victory Gardens Theater (Chicago, Illinois)
2002 ? Williamstown Theatre Festival (Williamstown, Massachusetts)
2003 ? Children’s Theatre Company (Minneapolis, Minnesota)
2004 ? Cincinnati Playhouse in the Park (Cincinnati, Ohio)
2005 ? Theatre de la Jeune Lune (Minneapolis, Minnesota)
2006 ? Intiman Playhouse (Seattle, Washington)</p>
<p>As you can see, Guthrie is on this list along with OSF. Further, so is Steppenwolf, which AlwaysAMom mentioned as on par with OSF. </p>
<p>I would agree with her that the New York International Fringe Festival is on par, but this would not appear on a “best of regional theaters” list. As well, Playwrights Horizons is very well known in the theater world and in NYC. </p>
<p>Niklick’s list of graduates included Children’s Theater Company of Minneapolis, Seattle Rep, Guthrie, OSF, Steppenwolf, Theatre de la Jeune Lune, and Utah Shakespeare which have all won Tony Awards for Best in Regional Theater. So, there is more than one source that recognizes the best in regional theater other than Time. </p>
<p>For a newer BFA program with only a few years’ worth of graduates, it seems that Minnesota/Guthrie is faring quite well.</p>
<p>EDIT: I wrote my post before the last two posts were posted by AlwaysAMom and WallyWorld and had not read them when I posted. I had written my post and was interrupted by a phone call and then sent it without reading anything posted in the meantime.</p>
<p>EDIT: The question marks that appear on the Tony list are not meant to be there. CC has a problem using certain “characters” particularly when using cut and paste from other sources. Where the question marks appear, they were meant to have been hyphens.</p>
<p>Wally, is this the Richard Zoglin article that was done in 2003? Richard graduated from tv critic to theatre critic at Time. I’m not sure I’d call him a “seasoned theatre professional”. Perhaps it was another article? You did say it was written by two. I would enjoy reading it, if you wouldn’t mind emailing it to me. Thanks!</p>
<p>Here is the link to the article in Time by Richard Zoglin written in 2003:</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,454479-1,00.html[/url]”>http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,454479-1,00.html</a></p>
<p>This is the article that mentions five top regional theaters including OSF and Guthrie.</p>
<p>Richard Zoglin has a degree in journalism and was once a TV critic.</p>
<p>A director/teacher at Shakespeare and Company told me that Zoglin wrote that piece in collaboration with the MFA department chair at Yale and another person of similar stature. So I am not sure that questioning his credibility is appropriate. Were you surprised by the top 5? I wasnt and among my circles nobody else was either even though you can see good theater elsewhere. Id go back to the Utah Shakespeare fest in a heartbeat but certainly would not put them on that list. </p>
<p>The fact that the Guthrie was on the list is not a revelation either. If you read one of my original posts on this thread I referred to the Guthrie as arguably one of the best theater companies in the country. I will be the first to admit that I saw a play at the Guthrie and it was so good that I saw the same play three nights in a row.</p>
<p>In terms of the Tonys; I have been to 4 theaters on that list where I observed embarrassing attempts at acting so that doesn?t mean much to me. </p>
<p>[Personal comments regarding other posters as well as quote referring to other posters from personal e-mail edited out. PLEASE keep all posts entirely to topic of thread, not comments on other posters. - Mod JEM]</p>
<p>The fact remains that my analysis and Thesis is correct. To date that program is noticeable under-represented at the best regional theater companies. To get into a debate that <em>those arent the best theaters</em>, <em>well maybe they are not doing it there but look over here</em>, <em>or maybe there not doing it now but they will be doing it</em> misses the point and is a tactless attempt to try to discredit Wallys analysis.</p>
<p>Wally, nobody is trying to discredit you. You made a remark about the graduates of the Guthrie program and a current student came on and explained that they only had three years of graduates so far and where they have worked. You mentioned that those were not top theaters and so others voiced their opinions that some theaters on that list are well regarded. You used one article in Time to say that they are not the top five theaters (despite the fact that Guthrie graduates were working at two of those five theaters in the Time article) and then I shared another source of top theaters that have been nationally recognized after you posted discounting that theaters that another poster put up were not on par with OSF. Considering that some of the theaters that this other parent posted, as well as some of the theaters that the Guthrie student posted that graduates are working at appear on another list of “best” regional theaters, it was just another source and viewpoint. You mentioned the journalist being a seasoned theater professional and others mentioned his actual background. Nobody was questioning his credibility as he is a journalist and critic. That just is not the same to some as a “theater professional.” Message boards are for sharing various information and views. </p>
<p>[response to deleted post section in preceding post removed - Mod JEM]</p>
<p>By the way, I have no opinions whatsoever of the five theaters in the Time article. I was responding to the discounting of the Guthrie working graduate list given they have only had three years of graduates, the Time article is not the definitive source of best theaters (and indeed their graduates are working at two of them), that the theaters AlwaysAMom listed are also well regarded (this is not a contest!), and that there are other sources of nationally recognized regional theaters such as the Tony awards which included theaters on the Guthrie graduate list. I have no personal opinion, like you claim as being “surprised” by the Time list or about any of these theaters. It was more about the discounting of the Guthrie graduates and bringing in other information and views.</p>
<p>I imagine the Minnesota/Guthrie program is well thought of by you since your child chose to apply.</p>
<p>People are not discrediting you to bring in other information or views. For instance, you said the Guthrie program had no study abroad and the current Guthrie student posted about a junior semester in London. Message boards are for sharing thoughts, ideas, opinions, perspectives, facts, etc. But they are not for discussing one another.</p>
<p>Wally, I truly don’t know why I ever engage you in conversation. My original point was to respond to your challenge of niklick’s list by stating that it lacked top regional theatre companies and NY credits. My contention that Steppenwolf and Chatauqua (regional companies); and Playwrights Horizons and the NYIFF (NY credits) were all on the list disproved your initial comment. If that’s what you’re considering when you say your “analysis and Thesis is correct”, then you are mistaken. If pointing out inaccuracies in posts is considered “sandbagging”, then I guess I’m guilty.</p>
<p>No, I wouldn’t say I’m surprised by the top five listed in that article. My only point was that it’s one article from four years ago, written by one journalist who happens to be a theatre critic (or one or two uncredited others, which seems unlikely to me that the Chair(s) of prestigious institutions would agree to co-write such an article without being acknowledged), and thus is valuable in the sense that it is his, or their, opinion but only that. Ranking theatre, or individual performances or shows, for that matter, is purely opinion and we all know that.</p>
<p>To state your opinion that Guthrie grads are under-represented at the ‘best’ regional theatre companies, based on a single four year old article, is fine but you’re stating it as a fact, not an opinion. You are insinuating that this is somehow a negative about this program, without taking into account every other credit that the grads have had. You also, I’m guessing, don’t know how many Guthrie grads actually auditioned for those five ‘best’. Who knows, Adam Yazbeck may have been the only one!</p>
<p>As for the “tactless attempt to try to discredit Wally’s analysis”, this is a discussion board. If you expect to post and not have anyone question or discuss your ‘analysis’ then you’re more than a little naive. Even professed experts who prefer to refer to themselves in the third person will be questioned if they post inaccurate information. Those who feel that by pointing out inaccuracies I’m sandbagging you, are more than free to email me and let me know which information I’ve posted has been inaccurate. In fact, I’d welcome hearing from them.</p>
<p>This discussion does a beautiful job of illustrating why “ratings” of things such as regional theaters (or college and university BFA programs! :)) can be troublesome. So much depends on who is doing the rating, what his/her criteria/ion were/are, his/her personal biases, etcetera, etcetera, as the King of Siam famously said. (Or did he say “and so on and so on”? I confess that I cannot remember! :)) Maybe the problem here is the whole premise of the thread (one school VERSUS another) rather than simply having people talk about the relative merits of each of these excellent programs. I don’t know about you guys, but if my kid wanted to do straight acting, she would be thrilled to be accepted at either of these amazing programs.</p>
<p>I agree NMR, that ratings like these are based on the criteria chosen and opinions of those doing the ratings and are not the definitive word. </p>
<p>I also agree that both of these BFA in Acting programs are very well regarded. It really is not one vs. the other or which is “better”? Which is better is the one that most closely fits what the individual applicant is looking for in a program and college and how that school fits their own criteria. My own kids did not pick based on prestige. They picked their favorites around which schools fit what they really wanted. I also think posters should talk about the merits of each program and then a person can weigh all perspectives that they can garner. </p>
<p>In my kid’s case, I don’t recall her ever researching where the graduates of each program ended up. She didn’t pick schools by that criteria at all. I understand that each candidate has their own list of college criteria and preferences, as it should be.</p>
<p>Also, in the end, it comes down to an audition for parts at theaters. Talent and skill and some luck, coupled with good training, will help you succeed, not the name of your college program. </p>
<p>I also think it is comparing apples to oranges if one truly feels they must look at the placement of graduates (and I don’t have this need personally) to look at a 30 year history at one school and a three year history at another. </p>
<p>Like you, if my kid were in straight theater and she LIKED either of these two schools, I’d be thrilled with either choice and only would care that she picked the one she personally liked the best. We didn’t care which schools our children chose. We also never called to talk to faculty or administrators ourselves. Our kids did the direct contact with such people to explore their schools. We only did the secretarial type calls such as lining up a tour or audition date. The exploration and decision was in the hands of the student who will be independent very soon after senior year. We were the support system only.</p>
<p>All,</p>
<p>I am sorry I included “vs” in the title to this thread. All I really wanted was to learn more about the merits of each program to help my daughter make a decision. I have learned a lot, but did not mean to start a debate. </p>
<p>Thanks to those who provided useful information. I think the decision will be made this week.</p>
<p>Talltex, do not worry. It was clear that you simply wanted to learn more about the two programs that your daughter is deciding between and to gather all perspectives and information. I am glad that a current student of one of the programs posted and that a student who used to go to the other school for their HS program also gave you some insights. I hope there was some useful information there. You asked a very valid question. I know you were looking to learn the merits of each program. Good luck to your daughter. She really can’t go wrong and what a happy dilemma to have!</p>
<p>[personal comments edited out - Mod JEM]
So you agree with the findings of the article but you disagree with my premise. Thats sounds more like the love hate thing than logic. I do appreciate you saying so because just for the sake of argument you could have denounced it. You get credit for that. </p>
<p>It must be that I just think with a different side of my brain than other people around here. It seems to me to be a very valid point that if your goal is to do <em>this</em> then one major criterion in seeking training to do <em>this</em> would be to find places who have actually succeeded at training people to do <em>this</em>. I dont know why that is a controversial statement. It certainly is what you do in business and athletics. If you want to be an Olympic high jumper you don?t go to school that feels good you go to one that has a track record of training successful high jumpers. And while you may find a good looking school that has trained some great pole jumpers and has the potential to train great high jumpers but they just havent been doing it that long…I would say is a notable thing to mention when comparing two programs. </p>
<p>Opinions are just that but they do come with different credibility factors. For the sake of students and parents who might be basing some of this information in their decision making I think we should agree to disclose the background of our opinions as they relate to this specific topic. I will go first as an example. I am not a theater professional. Yet, I have sat in the seats of the Guthrie on many occasions, spent nearly a week at <em>The U</em> have spoken to one of their current acting students somewhat at length, spoken with the department chair several times, traded lots of emails with a current NCSA student and had a D attend their summer program and I attended the NCSA orientation in Feb. </p>
<p>I also think that if you make a statement like, <em>this is on par with that</em> that you really should have actually been to <em>this</em> and <em>that</em>otherwise it?s a meaningless statement.</p>
<p>Wally, I do not wish to engage further in this type of dialogue as I find it inappropriate in tone. If anyone violates the Terms of Service, which are clearly stated on CC’s website, the moderator team and/or Roger Dooley, Forum administrator deal with it. I believe you are WELL aware of that process. Quoting the private emails sent to you about other posters and posting those on the forum is a violation. </p>
<p>You seem to want to debate which are the best theaters and so forth. I am not interested in that. I never doubted the quality of the theaters you brought up in the Time article. I have NO interest in that or which are “better” or “best” whatsoever. I merely was discussing the list of theaters that the Minnesota/Guthrie BFA student said their graduates are working at and offered up another opinion different from yours that those were quality theaters EVEN IF not on the list of five that you found in ONE source written by ONE theater critic. I merely gave an example of another source of best regional theaters, those that have won the Tony Award for best regional theaters nationally, and that the Guthrie graduates were working at a number of those, as simply another piece of information. Some theaters that AlwaysAMom brought up were on that list as well, and some are well known in NY too. That is all. It wasn’t a comparison with your topic du jour of which theaters are best AT ALL. It was validating that the Guthrie graduates seem to be faring well, AND explaining, as did fishbowlfreshman, whom I think you value her opinions, also stated, that the Guthrie program only has three years of graduates. </p>
<p>Beyond all this talk, my personal opinion is that the strength of the program is not so much where the graduates are now working. If the training is good and the graduates come out very skilled, then the person’s talent is going to take them places on the audition circuit, not their school name. People from NO college or a lesser known college can be cast at upper levels like Broadway. Those trained at esteemed programs also can be too. I have no doubt that the Guthrie program is well respected and so brought in other views. I was not discussing which theaters in this country are best or better. I was offering a different view that the criteria to evaluate their graduates was not simply one article in Time magazine. </p>
<p>I am not interested in arguing with you. I am interested in posters presenting what they know to answer the query of the OP. The discussion turned to some things you brought up that discounted the track record of the Guthrie graduates and I brought up other opinions and information. If you say an article is written by a theater professional and I find he is a journalist and critic, I’m free to share it. It doesn’t discredit you. I didn’t mention your name. I mentioned thoughts, opinions and facts. That is what a message board is. </p>
<p>If you have concerns about others’ compliance with the Terms of Service, as you have been instructed by CC in the past, report it. Do not discuss it here. Also, do not quote personal emails and PMs as you did not wish for others to do that to you either, as you are well aware. </p>
<p>Feel free to offer your opinions. Please keep the tone of the discussion to a courteous nature, thank you. Otherwise, people will not want to engage in the discussion. People are feel to offer opposing views or different information. Readers can then decide which perspectives are ones they wish to consider or not. Nobody is trying to discount your opinions but merely to offer their own. That IS allowed. Please do not characterize other posters and just offer up your own opinions on the topic, thanks.</p>
<p>There’s one other thing I forgot to mention in the comparison that may make a difference to some and that is class schedule. At NCSA, the academic classes are in the morning and professional training starts Monday through Friday in the late morning so there’s none of this business of getting your creative juices flowing to have to suddenly turn around and sit through a class in some random academic subject. I don’t remember exactly how that works at Guthrie, but I do remember one thing I personally didn’t like was that there were freshman acting classes on Saturday morning.</p>
<p>Oh, and Sooz … I didn’t go to the NCSA h/s program, but the college program factored very heavily in my deliberations this time last year. 
Guthrie did two years ago, but I just don’t remember as much about it except that <singing> “I got a shiver in my bones just thinkin’ … about the weather.” ;)</singing></p>
<p>Gah … Y’all stop bickering, will ya? Sets a bad example for us young impressionables …</p>
<p>Yeah, stop bickering, y’all. What she said. (Fishbowl, it’s great to hear from you. I am sure I am not the only one who would love an update on you/what you are doing and how it’s going. Hint, hint.)</p>
<p>Fishbowl…yikes, all this time I thought you had gone to the h/s program at NCSA. You do know so much about the program and so I got confused on that, but now realize it was due to your own consideration of possibly attending NCSA’s BFA program! Oops on that and I appreciate the clarification. You are a knowledgeable resource given your exploration of many BFA in Acting programs, having gone through the admissions process personally for two years (and successfully, I am happy to add!)</p>
<p>I agree that the posting should not be argumentative and should keep to discussing viewpoints, experiences, and information in a courteous manner and be kept to TOPICS, not other posters.</p>
<p>it was actually only my company who had saturday morning freshman acting class, and it was because we were in the process of looking for a new second teacher, so one teacher was convering ALL the classes. it wasn’t that bad, it actually made us oddly disiplined (and when you are that tired you are usually a better actor, hah.) But, thankfully, no class since has had the same fate, but my class still likes to martyr ourselves by bringing it up all the time. :)</p>
<p>Of course, when you are a sophmore on up you have rehearsal every saturday, but that’s a whole different story.</p>