<p>When dealing with people, there are so many complicated issues involved that the consequences are not entirely predictable. Giving state rate tuition has been a relatively new issue at some states. To be honest, there are many schools that do not check that carefully whether you are a state resident anyways. When my cousin lived with us, he got state tuition for classes just by having our address. No big deal with the local colleges. So it was in Ohio and Illinois as well. There are some schools that check more than others. THe residential colleges seem to be the ones that are more up on this. When signing up for comm or local state colleges, there is not much investigation in who is a state resident and who isn’t because just about everyone is.</p>
<p>epiphany, you keep mentioning “non-military” service. Do you think the DREAM act is never going to come up again, or do you not like the idea of illegal immigrants in the military, or just not like the military? I’m not sure what the answer is, there needs to be a way to bring these kids into the system. I think the military should be in play. (expecting bashing from all sides here…)
I don’t think we can possibly come up with enough public-service type jobs to employ all that would want them. And would you limit them to illegals? WHat about legal new grads who can’t find jobs in a bad economy and would jump at the chance to get career experience at subsistance wages if it meant not moving home to Mom and Dad’s basement? Teach for America is turning kids away.</p>
<p>I’m not bashing, Dragonmom, but the bashing is already there. Just google military service for illegal aliens and you can see it out there. The problem is that the type of jobs we need filled are not the desirable ones. Which will bring us into the arena of taking advantage of people. Which is why illegals are here in the first place, to do jobs at rates and conditions that not enough locals will do.</p>
<p>It’s all very nice to want to do more for those students who had no choice in coming here (that is, the ones whose parents brought them here illegally, or who parents came here illegally so that they could be born in this country), but the question is who will pay? The answer given by illegal aliens when they are asked is that they don’t have the money, and America is rich, so why shouldn’t Americans pay? </p>
<p>But maybe they don’t understand (or don’t care) just how costly this is:</p>
<p>[USATODAY.com</a> - Loose border saps county coffers](<a href=“http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-03-07-immigrants-health_x.htm]USATODAY.com”>http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-03-07-immigrants-health_x.htm)</p>
<p>[ABC</a> News: Border Counties: Crime Skyrockets](<a href=“Border Counties: Crime Skyrockets - ABC News”>Border Counties: Crime Skyrockets - ABC News)</p>
<p>Just like in the instances above, where the health care and law enforcement systems along the borders are going broke, the same applies to the education system. If we fund everyone at reduced rates, and if we have to pay for it, the money has to come from somewhere. </p>
<p>Let’s face it, the immigration problem is all about economic opportunity. Illegals will continue to come here at an increased rate if they are going to be given free medical care, jobs at higher rates than in their own country, and if their children are to be allowed to have the same access to higher education as the in-state (and in-country) students. If you really want to solve the illegal immigration problem, then you have to change the incentive system as it now stands. If, on the other hand, you feel we should fund such initiatives, then don’t be surprised that those who are poor should take advantage of the system to their advantage. I would do the same if I were them. </p>
<p>Over the long run, however, one must realize that this will eventually require that our scarce resources be allocated accordingly–and that taxes must therefore go up as well–primarily to cover the costs of medical and educational care for Mexico’s poor.</p>
<p>Fair question, dragonmom. I thought about it previously, and yes, perhaps I have no defensible answer for not including military in service. (Don’t dislike military per se: I was a happy military brat & feel indebted to the armed services for what they provided to my father & our family. Through my persistence, he’s buried where he was entitled to be buried & always wanted to be: in a military cemetery, which I visit regularly!) I’m just sensitive to the fact that it may look much more like “servitude,” and possibly with future civilian career opportunities limited later, if one has the intent on “mainstreaming” (fully integrating) immigrants who, despite origins & circumstances, have produced, contributed, been law-abiding, etc. </p>
<p>Some in the immigration debate paint with broadstrokes those who oppose the rampant, uncontrolled & haphazard absorption of <em>illegal</em> immigrants, as somehow racist & ungenerous. I do not put myself in that category. I agree with the idea of incentives, disagree with punishment alone as a deterrent.</p>
<p>I think that military service should be an <em>option</em> but not a requirement – I guess that’s what I’m saying.</p>
<p>Fair question, dragonmom. I thought about it previously, and yes, perhaps I have no defensible answer for not including military service. (Don’t dislike military per se: I was a happy military brat & feel indebted to the armed services for what they provided to my father & our family. Through my persistence, he’s buried where he was entitled to be buried & always wanted to be: in a military cemetery, which I visit regularly!) I’m just sensitive to the fact that it may look much more like “servitude,” and possibly with future civilian career opportunities limited later, if one has the intent on “mainstreaming” (fully integrating) immigrants who, despite origins & circumstances, have produced, contributed, been law-abiding, etc. </p>
<p>Some in the immigration debate paint with broadstrokes those who oppose the rampant, uncontrolled & haphazard absorption of <em>illegal</em> immigrants, as somehow racist & ungenerous. I do not put myself in that category. I agree with the idea of incentives, disagree with punishment alone as a deterrent.</p>
<p>I think that military service should be an <em>option</em> but not a requirement – I guess that’s what I’m saying.</p>
<p>And also, I agree with cptofthehoue that one must look to some equity in offering service jobs as alternatives to legal grads, as well. I’m glad people are refining, questioning, but I would much rather see these responses than the either/or, black/white, all-or-nothing debate that tends to result from rational attempts to discuss immigration with an evaluation of all its pluses and all its minuses. People who fantasize that there is (or should be) unlimited economic room for unlimited illegal entry is an example of the all-or-nothing/you’d-better-welcome-them unconditionally-or-you’re-hateful-thinking – which I do not respect and which is pure polemic.</p>
<p>What I was trying to do, “cpt,” was merely offer some viable models which are subject to critiquing, alteration, refinement. In addition to the emotional discomfort produced by black/white arguments, what I find intellectually frustrating is the insistence of too many on all sides of the argument, including those somewhat neutral, that the “problem” is too big for us to handle. No human condition that is manmade is too difficult for humans to solve – with creativity, ingenuity, openness & resolve.
:)</p>
<p>If the govt actually decided to secure the borders/ports , this would become a non-issue just as would every other major illegal immigrant related issue. However, the govt is in bed with big business and Mexico so that will never happen.</p>
<p>This is outrageous. Not only do we not stop people who flout the law and illegally cross the border, we SUBSIDIZE them in their illegal endeavours (for their sheer existence in the US is an illegality unto itself) and concurrently deprive legitimate American citizens of the educational opportunities and advantages, which are taken away and given to illegal aliens.</p>
<p>Unbelievable. Utterly unbelievable. This is the level of moral decay we have come to, of subsidizing illegal acts and encouraging illegitimate behaviour. A truly bad sign of the times.</p>
<p>Remind me why we still allow mandatory union membership (never mind that teachers should have the individual right to choose, and union membership should not be an undue requirement for those who don’t want it), as the unions are expounding increasingly farcical idiocies like this?</p>
<p>Most illegals I know did not cross the border illegally. They just flew into the US and did not leave. Simple as that.</p>
<p>Not leaving when you flew in on a tourist visa, is illegal. Any subsequent existence in the US past the visa date would be a thorough illegality. Flying in doesn’t make illegal aliens a single bit less illegal.</p>
<p>I recently visited Tijuana via walking across the border near San Diego. On my return, the line to cross back to the U.S. was literally thousands long. Most of them were Mexicans. The wait in line was about two hours.</p>
<p>I agree, SF. But people visualize these folks sneaking in with the coyotes over the fences or in a decrepit boat. That is not how anyone I know who came here illegally gained entry. Many, many of them simply come here legally and just do not go back. So many do it that we cannot go hunting them down. Some come here legally to get an education or for a job and when that visa expires, they stay. It is an ornerous process to get to stay legally, and much easier just to stay illegally. The risks currently are apparently not that high. I live in an area where it not allowed to ask if a person is legal here in many situations. Also fake ids and credential are peddled fairly openly. THere are even businesses where you can legalize your stay with an arranged marriage for a fee. </p>
<p>It is a crazy situation. Those here legally end up sucking it down to a large degree Friend of mine is a legal visitor here. Finally got working papers, did everything according to the law, finding that the insurance and licensing laws here are such that it is not going to be possible for her to make any money without getting a lot more business than she can rouse up. Needs more seed money as well. On the other hand, there are many doing the same thing completely under the table, no license, registration, insurance, probably not paying taxes either are profiting. When we make it more difficult to do it legally, much more difficult and do not crack down on the illegal, we are really encouraging breaking the law.</p>
<p>That we have so many illegals doing dangerous work for little pay and no benefits is really cheapening those jobs and making reforms in those areas difficult. I don’t believe for a moment that those “day laborers” as they are called who get picked up each day by those needing cheap workers, are paying taxes. It’s cash for the work. So forget the social security, taxes, etc. And if they are hurt, it’s off to the hospital on our dime. We are creating a sub culture for a group of people that is better than what they can do in their home country, but in doing so we are undermining our own standards.<br>
Though I do not have an opinion on what we should do about our immigration policies, I do think that shutting all of this down to find out the true impact of illegal labor on us is not a bad idea. We can then, go from there.</p>
<p>They should not receive in-state tuition. They are illegal…therefore, they shouldn’t be allowed any benefits a person that’s here legally should receive. There’s no way you can justify it.</p>
<p>touche, sheed. touche.</p>
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<p>Erm… how are they being deprived? </p>
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<p>Moral decay and breaking of the law just don’t go together. May I remind you that in the US it used to be legal to own slaves? You’re coming off just a tad dramatic IMO. </p>
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<p>And may you burn in hell for eternity for breaking these laws! Courtesy of [Loony</a> Laws - Outrageous Ordinances and Silly Statutes](<a href=“http://loonylaws.com%5DLoony”>http://loonylaws.com)</p>
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<p>There are plenty of ways to justify it. But there’s no use in letting it fall on deaf ears. </p>
<p>I remember a time when people used to care about being humane. Yes, of course any self respecting country should uphold their law in a rational manner. But ignoring this many illegals just isn’t rational. </p>
<p>They’re here. Their labor is being used. They came here fleeing harsh conditions which many of you will never come close to understanding. It’s too late to get them out, there are too many, and let’s face it; the government is full of crap and corrupt. If they really wanted the illegals out, they would have secured the border long ago. </p>
<p>Like true Americans, most people don’t know that illegal immigration through the Mexican border has LONG been a rampant issue. My parents were illegal immigrants long ago, and they’ve worked harder in a day than many here work in a year. My dad was the top in his high school class, high test scores, but unfortunately could not go to college because of issues that come along with being illegal. At the time many illegals were actually able to attend college, but back then there was no internet (<em>gasp</em>; meaning he had no way of knowing how) and let’s face it, an illegal doesn’t have the resources or the people to point him in the right direction. </p>
<p>Both of my parents came fleeing life and death situations that their own countries could not help them with (going to the police meant getting robbed and beaten - by the officers). </p>
<p>They aren’t isolated incidents. There are people coming in through the Mexican border from all over Latin America (not just Mexico, I know, what a surprise!) with the same story and even worse. </p>
<p>Is there no time at all to just put the “get the **** out brown people!” Lou Dobbs attitude to the side and simply ‘be humane’ for once?</p>
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<p>If your aim is to persuade others to adopt your point of view, I would suggest you learn not to insult them. My dad could beat your dad in a day’s work anytime. :)</p>
<p>bekindrewind, addresing each of your claims in order:</p>
<p>How are they being deprived?</p>
<p>Well, say, there were 10,000 spots in College X. Now, those spots are intended to be obtained by legitimated people, i.e., American citizens, legal immigrants, or in the case of foreign students, ones with the appropriate visas. </p>
<p>Illegal aliens don’t belong in either category. No one (at least no one who is sane) structures their state education system with benefiting illegal aliens in mind, not that they should. The primary purpose of an education system is to benefit the citizenry (illegal aliens, by the way, do not belong in that category). So whatever spots they take up of the 10,000, those are the spots the are NOT being given to the intended demographic, i.e., legitimate American citizens, legal immigrants, and legitimate foreign students. Thus are they being “taken away” from those who are rightly and legally entitled to them.</p>
<p>“Moral decay and breaking of the law just don’t go together. May I remind you that in the US it used to be legal to own slaves? You’re coming off just a tad dramatic IMO.”</p>
<p>The merits of laws aside, the very fact of breaking a law is by definition rejection of law and order, without which civil society cannot function. Breaking a law shows a moral disability or disinclination to respect the bounds of allowable behaviour within civil society, and thus, lack of moral (at least socially) compass, and thus, moral decay.</p>
<p>People who break laws aren’t called “criminals” or “felons” or whatever for no reason.</p>
<p>The attitudes & assumptions in post 76 were precisely what I was referring to in my post 65. No surprise here: the same old rhetoric, same old failed “morality” of additional injustices supposedly reversing other injustices. (Not.) Same blanket character assassination of anyone wanting any aspect of border control or integrity. </p>
<p>Order, by the way, does not equal hatred. It’s the underpinnings of the freedoms you are enjoying. And people who have not immigrated are not necessarily any less industrious than those who have. Once again with the reverse stereotypes.</p>
<p>I told you folks. I actually like the debate on immigration threads even less than AA threads, if that’s possible.</p>