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<p>How dare you make that presumption. For shame.</p>
<p>epiphany, if you don’t want to fall into the AA-advocate trap, please don’t used the acronym AA. I think it was Orwell, in 1984, who said that acronyms and abbreviations allow for laziness of the mind to actually think about the words being used and realise for themselves how ludicrous the whole thing is. (case in point, NAZI; if people actually used the full name, national socialist workers’ party, they would realise how much a farce the whole thing is, as the party was not “socialist” at all, and even less a party of “workers”. or the USSR. or NKVD. or Stasi).</p>
<p>So it is the same with URM or AA or whatever of those politically correct words. Politically correct language isn’t just laughable. As George Orwell predicted, it is precisely this sort of “doublespeak” that furthers “goodthink.” Let’s actually think about the real words for a minute, not the acronyms detached from the actual meaning they are supposed to convey and thus de-sensitising people from their significance. Affirmative Action? how’s is that even Affirmative, when people are being DEPRIVED of opportunity, and how’s it ACTION, when it is essentially picking names from a hat? or Under-Represented Minority. Let’s try if people actually thought about the meaning of the expression every time they used it. Under-Represented? What is the definition of under-represented? short, fat, ugly people are under-represented in the modeling and film industries. Are they thus, what we usually associated with Under-Represented Minorities then? or even the word Represented. What is representation? Does half the House of Representatives have to be female just because half the people they are representing are female? would that actually be representative democracy, or direct democracy? Or the worst yet, Minority. Nowadays I am not sure if any ethnic group even forms a convincing majority, if we recognise that the statisticians don’t categorise Hispanics with Caucasians (usually with the bracket saying Non-Hispanic Caucasian), and thus there is not really that overwhelming of a white majority?</p>
<p>This, of course, most people don’t even think about when they use the expressions URM or AA, in the same way Nazis don’t think about how ludicrous the actually full name of NAZI is. This laziness of thought, that detaches language from its real-world significance and meaning, is the cause of cultural deterioration in George Orwell’s writing. And so it will be in today’s world, when increasing, subjective evaluations like URM and AA are turned, by virtue of their being neutral-sounding acronyms, into seemingly objective and concrete realities.</p>
<p>If it we were only possible to truly take care of all the world’s tired masses and their poor, reality tells us otherwise! We struggle to take care of our own families while freely helping those less generous when we can. Our nation’s infra-structure has been stretched to the point where it’s beginning to fail what it was designed to do. It was not designed to handle the massive in flux of immigration. Absorbtion takes time. No matter how well you plan a dinner party for twelve your never quite able to handle it when twenty four show up at the door!</p>
<p>I’m not interested in getting into a debate about AA, or acronyms. That is <em>not</em> the topic of this thread. And given my comments, why would I be interested in such a digression?</p>
<p>Nor do I think I fall into any of the named “politically correct,” “lazy-mind,” etc. epithets. I.m.o., post 82 was quite off-topic & quite inappropriately directed toward me, for some reason. </p>
<p>It’s well-known on CC over the last 4 years that many of us who have made arguments on behalf of AA in college admissions really do not like to argue the point, because when we do, ■■■■■■, name-callers, and ranters appear out of the cupboards, like mice underneath the floorboards. You seem a little new to CC & thus may not be aware of our weariness. It’s a weariness shared by many students as well. The point I was trying to make, which you appear not to have understood, is that it is unpleasant & ineffectual to try to have a discussion with people who see contrasting sides of an issue only as extreme oppositions. Further, it is a waste of time to argue with posters such as that of #76, where the form of argument is largely emotional & the point of view belligerent or hostile. That is what AA debates on CC tend to do; similarly, it is what illegal immigration debates also do. That’s why I made the comment. It was well illustrated by the post that I prophesied would appear.</p>
<p>sorry about that, epiphany. This is in no way a consequence of what you posted. Indeed my post cannot be truthfully construed as a response to your post. It is largely my own thoughts, and i believe, while in a way a digression, it is very relevant to the debate. Far too often on TV or on the Internet, people seemed to have unconsciously accepted what is really quite controversial and politicised language, with the attendant effects on the mode of thought. AA and URM are key examples.</p>
<p>I believe that when people start understanding the innate natures of the expressions AA and URM, they actually can come to understand the real content of the issues and not dwell on spoon-fed political arguments straight from the Democratic National Committee or Bill O’Reilly/Lou Dobbs/Rush Limbaugh for that matter. It is difficult to get someone to understand the hypocrisy that is Affirmative Action when they don’t even consciously comprehend the politicised nature of the expression every time they used it.</p>
<p>And sorry it seemed to digress into ethnic preference again. But i think the whole pay-for-the-illegal-aliens’-college-tuition ties into the whole psychology that spawned the affirmative action mess. they are different offspring of the same parents, so to speak.</p>
<p>“The U.S.-born children of those illegal immigrants will have the same opportunities as your own children.”</p>
<p>Right, except that their English is often poor, their parents have no knowledge of the educational system, and they generally go to run-down schools that can ill afford to cater to their needs.</p>
<p>“Far too often on TV or on the Internet, people seemed to have unconsciously accepted what is really quite controversial and politicised language”</p>
<p>In this respect, sf, I will agree with you & say that this aspect of your response relates directly here, as well. (Let’s just not go off on an AA tangent.) Indeed, language, politicized definitions, arbitrary categories, & the corruption of semantics all factor into obscuring debate rather than advancing it. Once one side of an argument succeeds in capturing & monopolizing emotionally charged phrases or images, there’s an automatic polarizing result. Those who prefer to analyze & reason are left out of the conversation. (So I know what you mean by the treachery of accepting on its face a term like “affirmative,” even though I believe I understand why that term was chosen.)</p>
<p>Thus, with illegal immigration, if you seek or publish objective data about its impact, you are immediately suspect as being xenophobic. If you suggest restraint for both pro- and con- camps, you are branded intolerant by one side, bleeding-heart by the other. It must be all or nothing. Either no questions are asked, no legalities enforced, or you are hateful, and --as one poster above declared – “inhumane.” Yes, that’s the U.S., all right: that’s why we have so many millions of both legal & illegal immigrants: because we’re just so inhumane that we do not consider multiple reasons for refuge – economy, politics, religion. We’re just so inhumane that we educate & medically treat anyone who is here, no matter how illegal the travel, or in fact how criminal (in those select cases) the behavior might be. Try the reverse and see how much “humanity” it buys you in Mexico, in Turkey, in Saudi Arabia.</p>
<p>I don’t know about Turkey or Saudi Arabia, but in Mexico foreigners are educated for free and can easily buy in to the national health care system (IMSS) at little cost. There actually are a good deal of “illegal” Americans residing in Mexico, not because they can’t get papers but because they have committed a crime in the U.S. and don’t want a paper trail, or because they are just too cheap to pay the 300 dollars a year it costs to get a resident visa in Mexico. Believe me, if getting a legal visa to reside in the U.S. were that easy for Mexican workers, you would see 95% willing to pay the fee/“back taxes” in order to come out of the shadows.</p>
<p>quite excellent, epiphany. I always thought a much more appropriate name for say Affirmative Action would be say, Corrective Policy, or Historical Corrective Policy, or Corrective Ethnic Policy. Of course, there is no way the screaming heads in Congress will ever adopt such a proposal. </p>
<p>There is a legal term for illegal Mexicans. It’s illegal aliens. I am not talking about Mexican children born here, who, for better or worse, are American citizens and thus entitled to the attendant rights and benefits. I am talking about that narrow legal category of Mexican person called illegal aliens. Anyone should think about those two words for a bit before advocating giving “illegal aliens” state education aid.</p>
<p>“Mexican children born here, who, for better or worse, are American citizens and thus entitled to the attendant rights and benefits”</p>
<p>for better or worse? careful, or you’ll show your true colors to the detriment of your entire argument</p>
<p>should read, “American children born in the U.S. to non-citizens”</p>
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<p>True, illegal immigrants bring with them a host of problems which spill over to their offspring, requiring the expenditure of additional funds to “cater to their needs,” as you say. I assume then, that over and above what is already being provided by American public schools, you are advocating for additional English-language instruction, educational counseling, and special services that cater to the needs of the children of illegal immigrants? Or am I missing your point?</p>
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<p>Not sure much more can be added.</p>
<p>Walk into any of NYC public magnet schools and you will find numerous illegal aliens, many of whom are academic stars. Some of them ONLY find out that they are illegal when it comes time to apply to colleges. The kids weren’t born in the US, but many come here when they are so young that they have no memory of their native nations. Many can not read or write in their “native” tongues. They really have no “home” to return to. </p>
<p>CUNY is fairly cheap. Many students go part-time. It’s an open secret that many of the star students at CUNY are illegal aliens who go to CUNY because they can’t get financial aid. </p>
<p>I understand the anti-arguments in my head. However, when you know these kids personally, it’s really hard to buy the argument that they should be forced to “return” to a nation they left before they were of school age. That goes double when there is a politically oppressive regime. </p>
<p>A few years ago, the NY Times Sunday Magazine had a story about one particularly bothersome case. A man and woman were here legally. However, they did not have green cards. The husband worked for some international organization or consulate as a driver. Their adult children remained behind in Sierra Leone. During the political unrest there, all of the adults were killed. The sole survivor was their 8 month old grandson. They got a tourist visa for him and brought him to the US. They flew there, picked him up, and came to the US. He grew up here. He won a scholarship to a top boarding school through Prep for Prep or some such program. He was an outstanding student there. However, when it came time for him to go to college, the truth came out–he was an illegal alien, and thus ineligible for fin aid. The alums of the boarding school tried to move all of the obstacles to legalize his status and get a green card for him. No dice. So, the alumni association held a fund raising drive and raise the money for him to attend college here. </p>
<p>Now, it’s true that this is a particularly heart rendering story. Other than refusing to return an infant to his native land, where he had no living relatives, they had done nothing illegal. The grandparents were here legally.</p>
<p>And, you think how you would react yourself—your children have been murdered, you have one living grandchild. If there is a way to get him into the US legally, you don’t know it. You aren’t eligible for a green card yourself. The child is in an orphanage, and conditions in it are absymal. What would you do? </p>
<p>So, please don’t think that all of these illegal kids bring a host of problems with them. Most are raised by parents who work very, very hard at jobs that pay less than minimum wage. They are good people. They raise their kids to be good, law abiding citizens. Some live in nations where applying to emigrate would have subjected them to all kinds of discrimination and punishment.</p>
<p>One of my D’s friends came to the US illegally with her mother, who fled with her when it came time for the D to be genitally mutilated. Her mom didn’t want this to happen to her D and so she fled–in a nation where wives are considered the property of their husbands. Eventually, they were caught by the INS and ended up being one of the first cases to recognize these types of cases as grounds for political asylum. Had they been returned, it’s probable that the girl would have had the experience her mom wished her to avoid and the mother would have been killed.</p>
<p>“you are advocating for additional English-language instruction, educational counseling, and special services that cater to the needs of the children of illegal immigrants?”</p>
<p>In my region, any Mexican immigrant student (legal or illegal resident) whose parents do not speak English, is provided a special translator for any teacher-parent conferences, which are then conducted entirely in Spanish. Now, if you’re Russian, Italian, or speak only an African dialect, and arrived here legally, you’re out of luck, & can only guess at what the teacher might be saying.</p>
<p>Similarly, the student of above translator-provided parents, is usually given academic instruction in Spanish, privately, in the public school – even though that is supposed to be forbidden. </p>
<p>I would definitely call both of the above “special services catering to needs.”</p>
<p>So would I, Ephiphany.</p>
<p>Our ELL mandates are as messed up as those for Special Ed.</p>
<p>“I understand the anti-arguments in my head. However, when you know these kids personally, it’s really hard to buy the argument that they should be forced to “return” to a nation they left before they were of school age. That goes double when there is a politically oppressive regime.”</p>
<p>Again with the broad strokes. We could advocate all day for “particular cases.” But nobody is faceless. Virtually everyone from a third world nation, which btw, have huge populations, has a legitimate sob story. Of course I consider many Latin American nations “politically oppressive.” But the same goes for many in Africa, and certainly for China. And as to economics, What’s not to feel for, when a family is struggling, starving, deprived. Can you say Bengladesh? The Phillippines?</p>
<p>At some point, responsibility for our own kicks in as a <em>policy</em>, not just a human-interest story of one family’s tragedy/predicament juxtaposed with the theoretical model of the supposedly well-off typical American. The point of an enlightened and humanistic policy is to balance the human-interest stories with the cold, hard, unforgivable facts of the current American economy, with the needs of native-born schoolchildren, as well as the needs of legally arrived residents in the context of an environment with finite resources at any given time.</p>
<p>Last week on a Houston talk radio station the discussion turned to bilingual education programs in Texas. Several teachers called in (no names or districts given) to say the the bilingual program is only teaching spanish-speaking students in spanish, not english. The teachers say the students do well until they get to high school were the bilingual program stops. He’s the jaw dropping stat. 70% of students coming out of the bilingual program drop out before graduation. The teachers say that the majority of their colleagues are furious about this, yet they can’t do anything because they will be retaliated against by the administration.</p>
<p>Re post #98:</p>
<p>Perhaps you missed the fact that both of the specific examples I gave involved kids from African nations, not South America. </p>
<p>And what about people from nations which don’t allow people to leave? As a practical matter, the citizens of these nations can’t apply to come to the US legally. Sometimes, there isn’t an American Embassy at all. Sometimes, walking into one is going to result in imprisonment or worse. </p>
<p>So, should all those brilliant Chinese and North Korean kids who came here as little kids and can’t read or write in their “native” languages be deported to their “home” nations? Is that what you are advocating?</p>
<p>Here in NYC, at least, not all illegal aliens are Hispanic.</p>