Need advice (lots of it) for a bright kid who wants to be rock star

mazewanderer · August 8, 2011, 2:24pm

I am a frequent poster on CC though this is the first time on this forum. I may need to keep coming back for more advice. Here is the situation.

S1 is highly motivated, interested in science and math and he did what he takes to get into Caltech. S2 is totally different, and we are entering uncharted territory over here.

S2 is entering junior year, he is in a magnet program for gifted students, has a low GPA (3-3.3 range) though he is taking higher level classes. Every teacher feels he is not working up to his potential. The common statement is “He can get in one minute which takes other bright students 5 minutes but he is careless, makes basic mistakes and does not care. He could do much better if he wanted.” His answer is “Why do I need to know who was 22nd president?” He has ADHD but medicines were causing him to loose weight and not sleep well so he does not take medicine. I am expecting he will get between a 29-33 in ACT, I hope it is in the higher end or preferably 34-35 (hope I guess).

The only thing that seems to motivate him is his guitar. He plays the guitar all the time and takes private lessons. The teacher tells us that he is very good but his teachers are more musicians than academics and there may be some element of not wanting to loose a student. He is interested in contemporary not classical music. Like some other 16 years old’s, he thinks he is going get a platinum CD or have the number one song for 50 weeks and considers himself infallible. He refuses to recognize that many musicians do not make it to that level and have to survive on much less. In fact his favorite teacher is now wanting to go back to school for a degree in business as he needs another career also to pay the bills.

When he graduates from HS, he initially thought he will go to Musicians Institute (MI) in LA. MI is a trade/vocational school not really a degree granting institution. He argument is that you have teachers who are practicing musicians and you get good contacts. I would prefer him to do music with something else like music business or music technology so that he has more options than just a certificate in guitar. Also, I am concerned about having an 18 year old live alone in LA, as MI does not have dorms etc.

He now has agreed to consider the flagship state U and has heard about University of Southern California (USC) but not sure that he will get in based on grades etc. He does not have much EC’s other than volunteering at the local hospital and is not part of any band or has other music EC’s. He will audition for Berklee early next year and is not willing to apply to Julliard or Oberlin as he feels they are too classical.

So I am not even sure what questions to ask but let me start
[ol]
[]Any experiences with kids like this: Bright, not motivated in anything else, has ADHD and unrealistic expectations though passionate about music.
[]What are some schools he should consider other than those mentioned above?
[]Dual majors or other complementary subjects that he has a fall back skill?
[]What we can do in the next one year to improve his chances?
[]How do we get a reality check if that is possible?
[]Anything else I am missing?
[/ol]

Any advice would be appreciated. I thought S1’s application process was challenging, I realize this may be even more.

mazewanderer · August 8, 2011, 2:26pm

I know that was a long post, but I wanted to explain the circumstances.

27dreams · August 8, 2011, 3:36pm

<ol>
<li>Any experiences with kids like this: Bright, not motivated in anything else, has ADHD and unrealistic expectations though passionate about music.</li>
</ol>

Yes. Before I got into every single music school to which I applied, I’m sure some people would have described me this way, and a few maybe still do. Many others view me as a fully competent, realistic, and talented musician. It depends on who you ask and what their view is toward contemporary/popular music in the first place. I’ve struggled in school because I was tested for ADHD late in the game and the meds didn’t work well for me either. I have an IQ of 130 and I barely managed a B in every history and science class I ever took. I eventually stopped trying hard in those classes because it just didn’t seem worth the agony.

I don’t know how far your son’s passion for music carries him. Do you know if he’s at the level he needs to be to get into competitive music schools? If not, he’s naive and you should have a serious conversation with him about alternatives. If he is, he’s probably just misunderstood. What are his musical goals? Does he literally think he’s going to have a #1 single for 50 weeks? Probably not. Is this the impression a lot of people get when they see kids who are very passionate about a career in contemporary/popular music to the point where they will “throw away” more traditional career opportunities in pursuit of it? Probably. Several people who vaguely know about my aspirations as a contemporary musician have asked me if I want to be the next American Idol. While I’m sure they mean well, it’s insulting to me as a serious musician and I would never dream of becoming wildly successful without years and years of hard work, education, and training, and even then I know there’s a big risk of having to shift my path a little bit. Sit down with your son and have a non-patronizing conversation with him about his career goals - both the ideal and the practical. Don’t get alarmed if he can’t see himself doing something that isn’t in some way related to music. I can’t either. However, if his main goal is more related to fame than the music itself, it’s not going to end well.

<ol>
<li>What are some schools he should consider other than those mentioned above?</li>
</ol>

I recommend NOT applying to Musician’s Institute. There are many reasons, but the most important is that you will want him to get a legitimate Bachelor’s degree. If, after four years, he decides to go down a different career path, most employers would be just as happy to see a BM as they would a BFA, BA, or BS. Maybe even more so, because it takes a huuuge amount of dedication to be a music major. I auditioned for and was accepted to the following programs this past audition season and would recommend any of them:

**USC - B.M. Popular Music (I am currently enrolled here.)
*UMiami - B.M. Music Business OR Contemporary Writing major with Creative American Music minor and contemporary performance emphasis
*Berklee - B.M. Performance (Although there’s a whole lot of contemporary/popular study here, there is more jazz foundation in this program than most might think. Will he consider jazz schools? That can open up dozens of other possible options.)
*The New School for Jazz and Contemporary Music - B.M. Jazz Studies (there are contemporary ensembles available and the curriculum is open to contemporary styles)
**NYU - B.F.A. Recorded Music - (mainly a recording tech/industry/critique program, but you have the option to enter as a performer-entrepreneur. This option will create numerous “fallback” job opportunities but lessons as a performer are not included in the major.)

Other options that I didn’t apply to but still recommend are:
Belmont University - B.M. Commercial Music (Christian school, if he’s okay with that)
Any reputable jazz program.

<ol>
<li>Dual majors or other complementary subjects that he has a fall back skill?
Depends on what he wants. Maybe if he had a minor in Music Industry he could get an even better foundation for the realistic side of the biz. Also try something related to technology, maybe. I honestly don’t know, because I choose my curriculum based on interests and overall career goals.</li>
<li>What we can do in the next one year to improve his chances?</li>
</ol>

Try to visit some of these schools and get him lessons with faculty members who can tell him how competitive he is and what he needs to do to prepare for auditions.

<ol>
<li>How do we get a reality check if that is possible?</li>
</ol>

Getting those lessons will give you a reality check. Generally talk to people who are in-the-know about the possibilities of contemporary/popular music careers. I was lucky enough to have a family friend who was in an AMA-winning band, and I paid a nice chunk of change to record my original tracks in his studio. He reassured me that I definitely know what I’m doing and am at a pretty professional level, and he recommended a book to me called All You Need to Know About the Music Business.

<ol>
<li>Anything else I am missing?
I know it’s a hard line to walk, but don’t crush his dreams, and don’t let him do anything really stupid. Not sure how else to put it. If you have any more questions, feel free to ask. I hope this helps. I know it’s hard to convince people over the internet that my thoughts are valuable and I’m not just another one of these unrealistic kids, but USC, UMiami, The New School, NYU, and Berklee all seem to think I have my head screwed on straight, so to speak. I hope you value my advice by taking that into consideration.</li>
</ol>

mazewanderer · August 8, 2011, 5:22pm

Thank you so much. I definitely value the advice and I am glad that my son is not the only one. I really do not enough about musical talent to know if he has one or not. I believe he is good. The instructors he goes to in the local music shop tell me he is good, but none of them have actually gone to a degree granting program in music.

Also, I do not know that he is after fame really as much as music. It was sort an answer when I tried to point out that musicians do not make much money overall and his answer was “Well what if I have platinum album or top hit for 50 weeks”.

He cannot see himself doing something outside of music and I told him to look at music business for example as he as a good head for business. I am willing to make it work if he gets into a good program but was hesitant about Musicians Institute.

Is there a reason you choose USC over Berklee and the others?

Thanks for your thoughts.

kmcmom13 · August 8, 2011, 7:05pm

^Maze, just so you know, if your son pursues music technology, he will want to get his GPA up for some of those schools. My son also has inattentive type add and was not medicated in HS, but like 27 dreams, has a very superior range IQ.

Does your son have accommodations for the SAT/ACT – make sure he does to properly represent his skill level.

Also know that once motivated those 3.3’s can become 3.9s – I’ve seen it happen so RAISE THE BAR NOW WHILE THERE’S STILL TIME. (My son was motivated by the desire to get into UMichigan, which has a top flight music technology program and requires high GPA/Stats/portfolio/compositions/performance background plus academic rigor. He also attended a G/T program. His upward trend not only gave him a boost to get in, but a full tuition scholarship. He went from a 3.3 in soph to 3.92 and 3.95 unweighted in APs, plus straight As in two university dual enrollment courses. So believe that it can be done ;)

If you think he’s willing to step up his game a little and you’d like more info about music technology/engineering programs and requirements, visit [UM</a> School of Music, Theatre & Dance](<a href=“http://music.umich.edu%5DUM”>http://music.umich.edu) and look under “performing arts technology” which is the UMich interdisciplinary contemporary music/tech/recording/composition collection of disciplines, and feel free to pm me for info about that or IU or NYU – all of which we toured.
Cheers,
K

RoKr93 · August 8, 2011, 10:42pm

How long has he been playing guitar?

I started at age 6 and I am certainly not good enough to get into any sort of B.M. program for guitar (although to be fair, that could be attributed to lack of dedication when I started playing, sad to say).

But the point is, if he’s been playing for only 2 or 3 years, music school (at least, a straight-up performance major…others may vary) are probably out of the question unless he is EXTREMELY talented. Contemporary guitar programs (especially the one at USC, which is considered to be one of the finest in the nation) are wildly competitive. You really do have to be a FANTASTIC guitarist from a technical standpoint to get into that sort of program. Here’s a show put on by a bunch of USC guitar students:

[‪ARTS:</a> Superaxe from the Studio/Jazz Guitar Dept.‬‏ - YouTube](<a href=“ARTS: Superaxe from the Studio/Jazz Guitar Dept. - YouTube”>ARTS: Superaxe from the Studio/Jazz Guitar Dept. - YouTube)

Pretty incredible skill level they’ve got going on. And heck, if your son’s got chops like that, then more power to him. And he has my undying admiration, haha. ;)

If not though, stuff like Music Technology, Music Business, etc…that’d require far less actual technical prowess on an instrument. Mostly what they seem to want is a good level of musicianship.

But I’d leave all the info about that to all the wonderful people on here who actually know stuff about those college programs. Just wanted to chime in as far as guitar goes.

Best of luck to you and your son!

musicprnt · August 9, 2011, 4:34pm

What concerns me about your son is that he may not have a realistic view of what it is like getting into music. I am all for kids pursuing their dreams and I feel if it doesn’t work out for them something else will come along, I wouldn’t be supporting my son’s quest to become a violinist otherwise. That said, I also wouldn’t be supporting him if I felt he was unrealistic, that he thought (as sadly far too many, especially some of the high level students we see,do) he was going to waltz out there and become the next great soloist and therefore all he has to do is play and it will all happen…when in reality so much of it is grinding through, hoping to find an opportunity or snagging a bit of luck and doing all the things often required of ‘real’ jobs, like networking, getting to know people, and working you tail off in any way you can to make it. I don’t think he is necessarily looking to be famous, but his comment to me about having a hit single and ‘making it’ could show a lack of understanding the reality.

Especially in ‘popular’ music, thanks to shows like American Idol and the like, they present this image that anyone can just get out there and be a star, all you have to do is shake your tale on ABC and so forth (obviously, to get on the program isn’t exactly easy, let alone get up there) and that is it. There used to be the myth of the ‘overnight’ sensation, and when you look at them, many of them struggled for years and years, paid their dues (You may want to have your S read Gladwell’s “Outliers”, specifically the section about the Beatles, about how hard a path it was for them.

I don’t know much about contemporary guitar, but like others I suspect that playing the guitar for a couple of years wouldn’t be good enough to get into such a program at a top school. As people will say on here about classical music, if there is a program you could get to, you may want to have your son evaluated by someone on the faculty to see what they think. I don’t want to knock his current teacher, but quite honestly they may not be knowledgeable about what a program like a USC would require, if it is anything like classical music there is a world of difference between being ‘good’ and being ‘good enough’ (in classical music it is no different; from experience I can tell you that a lot of teachers in the violin world know little or nothing about what the levels are like in high level programs, and are routinely shocked when a kid they promote as being great, would be considered mediocre at those levels).

Music tech and engineering might be a good discipline, your S could take lessons on guitar and perform and such while focusing on that, it may be a good path. The only problem that I can see, from reading on here, is that those tend to be pretty tough admits, and if your S is putting up okay grades, that can be a problem for those programs, since academics matter there (I know they do at NYU, a lot). One thought I have is if he gets interested in a program like that, like musical tech or whatever, as a means to his goal, he might find the motivation to boost up his grades, and I would present that to him as the option.

Having been a bit unmotivated myself in high school, I also wonder if he for whatever reasons is bored in school or thinks that is the path to an uninteresting job (I realize he has ADHD and that obviously factors into this, I am not addressing that since I know very little about it) and has put his hopes on music as ‘interesting’, and perhaps by trying to make the connection between music and school grades, he will find the motivation to do better.

I think the biggest factor is if music is his dream, then he has to understand there are many roads into it and that while he may not be good enough in a performance program, that he can still do it but it is going to take focusing on the needs of that path. More importantly, I think he needs a big reality check, as Gladwell or anyone in the business will tell you., that being good on guitar and even as a songwriter is not enough, it takes a lot of work to get someplace (and tons of people do the hard work and still don’t make it), and banking on ‘overnight success’ has less odds then winning a 160 million powerball jackpot by yourself by placing a single bet.

27dreams · August 9, 2011, 8:47pm

“The instructors he goes to in the local music shop tell me he is good, but none of them have actually gone to a degree granting program in music.”

This sends up a bit of a red flag. I’d advise you to schedule some lessons for him with a teacher who actually has a degree in some type of music training, preferably in guitar.

“Is there a reason you choose USC over Berklee and the others?”

USC is just the best fit for my preferences in a college as well as my career goals. I did very thorough research in each of my options and concluded that USC is the best place for me. Some of the things I really like about USC are its academic and music school prestige, the pop program’s selectivity and small size, the beautiful campus, the proximity to an entertainment capital, the faculty, student opportunities, university spirit, and of course, the curriculum itself.

lookingforward · August 9, 2011, 9:24pm

DH had a similar choice; his decision was made after two years in college. What he has always said is that loving guitar, taking lessons, playing a lot by yourself, maybe jamming at the music shop, etc, are indicative of a hobby. Not a life goal.
Does your son perform and has he garnered attention from any paying or public audience? Bonnie Riatt once said (and someone can correct this, if it’s outdated) that making money in music isn’t about a record. The industry sucks up those profits. It’s about touring, fronting, paying a whole lotta dues. Facing a world far less comfy than home, to build a following.

Right now, especially if he has ADHD, he may not be “testing” his skills or marketability. Add to that, breakthrough artists need original music. I realize this sounds harsh and I apologize. You didn’t mention your own opinion of his talent. Do you think it’s great enough to take a chance, delay college? Best of luck.

ps. friend went to Berkelee and loved every minute. Many great reviews from the right media, regional performances, CDs, contacts. Not how she pays the rent.

SnowflakeVT · August 9, 2011, 11:01pm

He should also look into summer programs that will put him neck in neck with other guitar students of a similar age. My D, who is at Berklee now, did the 5-week summer program before her senior year and was able to see how she fit in with other musicians from across the US and internationally as well. Berklee’s program had 900 kids, but they do placement auditions right away to figure out your private lesson level and to group you in with other similar students for ensembles and classes. The ensembles and small classes are small, so they do a great job with staff to student ratios where it makes sense. If you son does this and end up in with the beginners group going into his senior year, then you have some more thinking to do. If he is truly talented (and just not currently directed properly) he could end up with some high level musician peers in his ensembles that could push him to new levels. I have a S who is similar to yours (ADHD, same GPA range, Bass player) and he is just now starting his focus sprint as he enters his senior year. It took us a few tries to find the right dosage of meds, but the doctor was very helpful … we found one that releases more in the morning and less as the day goes on so it didn’t make my son as jittery and allowed him to go to sleep at a normal time. Your son may need to find the right balance to buy him some time until he completely matures. My son refuses any special accommodations, so it is what it is for now, however, his ACT scores were much higher than we ever imagined given his GPA. Good luck … there’s plenty of good advice in this forum that you can consider.

AHSTeacher · August 9, 2011, 11:20pm

What great advice! The summer program advice is one very good way to size up skills. Does your state have high school music contests? All-State competitions can really make a student aware of the level of performance they need to attain. It’s also a great way to meet others with the same interests.

mazewanderer · August 10, 2011, 3:11pm

Thanks for all the advice. I made a mistake and did not post one bit of information. He did go to the USC summer Guitar camp last month but I have not talked to the instructor or got any feed back, so it did slip my mind. Based on the advice here, I will try and get a hold of the instructor and see if they will talk to me. If not, I will try and see if I can get a professor at the local state U (they have a more classical program) but I am sure if I find the right person and get him to make an assessment, he/she might provide me with a frank assessment. (Again I apologize, I was not trying to withhold any information).

Other than this USC program all his instruction has been at music shops with the music shop instructors. He does not play in a band or anything. He did try to start one but some reason he refuses to tell me it never went anywhere. It may be due to the fact that he is not that social but I do not know the reason. He has not taken part in any type of music competition.

What is my assessment of him. Honestly, I have very little music knowledge and I do not want say he is good or not, for the fear of either being too critical or allowing hope to triumph over facts. I would prefer to have some independent expert without an axe to grind to make an assessment. However I will say something, I think he has a razor sharp mind and can think out of the box. I have outlined problems I have in my workplace (business problems) and he has amazed me with his analysis. Once I even mentioned his perspective at a team meeting and every one thought it was great. So I really think that he will make a good businessman or even scientist but his grades are not good at this stage and he claims to have no interest in those areas. It is my opinion and those of his teachers that if he put his mind to it, he could be a 4.0 student.

So it is really hobby or it something he really has talent for. I think if he used it as hobby and put his mind to something else, he could do very well and yet have an outlet. If really has talent, I want to encourage him. In other words, I am confused also. I have tried to point to him that music is not what pays the rent for most musicians, but at this stage it has fallen on deaf ears.

My son does refuse special accommodations and does not acknowledge there is an issue with his ADHD.

As pointed out by others, American Idol and other programs seem to have changed the whole perception of what music is about.

Again I value all your comments and any other suggestions are welcome. Meanwhile I will try and contact the instructor at USC to see what he says.

lookingforward · August 10, 2011, 3:45pm

Razor-sharp mind. ADHD. One of the hard lessons kids have to learn, even some adults, is how much success also hinges on working well within the group.

In a band or studio, it can mean a sense of the group dynamics. In addition to having the right level of musical skill, he needs to be able to negotiate the interpersonal challenges. On top of that, meet a number of expectations that others set; accept that, sometimes, one’s own preferences matter less.

Berklee requires a knowledge of basic music theory. And, this answers a Q about first semester, as an example:

Based on a written theory placement exam, taken during the registration period, you will be placed in appropriate levels of the required courses. These courses include harmony, arranging, ear training, music technology, ensemble, and private instruction. degree students take one liberal arts course such as English Composition. *

So, after the talent question, I’d want to know mine could navigate the program itself. Good luck. Hope this turns out well.

SnowflakeVT · August 10, 2011, 10:30pm

The other thing to consider is a gap year program where he can explore his musical interests more, develop gigging experience and gain experience working with other musicians, and possibly learn some more life skills to help him manage his ADD. The challenges of ADD is that your mind is busy, but not everyone can communicate with you effectively if you don’t have strategies to control and harness those thoughts and energy. You son can also tell you what he thought of the USC program. Did he take placement tests at the beginning? Was he placed in a level that made sense to him? Did he enjoy working with the other musicians (as they surely were grouped into ensembles)? If his experience was very positive from his perspective, this is a good data point. The thing to sort through is whether or not this experience was positive because of the music, or because of the hanging out time with the other students. :)

AHSTeacher · August 10, 2011, 11:41pm

Check with your high school about music contests.

LGSMom · August 11, 2011, 7:15am

In my state we have classical and jazz allstates as two separate festivals. I don’t think guitar is an auditioned instrument for either… even for jazz. So you really do need to check with your HS music teacher or google “allstate” for your state.

musicprnt · August 11, 2011, 11:39am

Looking forward makes a great point about music, that a lot of it goes beyond sheer musical talent, and it doesn’t matter the kind of music, interpersonal skills are huge, something a lot of kids forget or don’t know. Ensemble work is the bread and butter of music and someone with poor interpersonal skills is going to have a hard time. For the OP, what kind of interpersonal skills does your S possess? Is he good in groups, can he communicate and work in a group? These could be as important as musical chops…

RockBandMom · August 14, 2011, 3:17pm

My daughter and her guitarist are entering Berklee this fall. She wanted to have a band and be a music major since the 6th grade talent show. I took a look at what it takes to make it in music, and I decided to do a few things based on the following:

Most musicians are hobbyists. They don’t support themselves with music, unless they are teachers.

If you want to perform, you usually make it between the ages of 22 and 27.

To become an expert, you need 10,000 hours of practice (many sources for this one).

Popular music is not about being the best musician.

Being in a band is HARD!

Soooo… she has fronted her own band for over four years now. She knows about schlepping her own equipment, being in a van for long hours, etc., working on getting her 10,000 hours of performing time, and she still wants to do it. That is what I cared about. Was it something that she REALLY wanted to do?

There is no formal path with popular music performance. There tends to be a more formal path with classical music. Her goal is to support herself through music. That is it. But she has no starry-eyed dreams as to what it takes. Talk to the USC instructor, get a realistic assessment, but also encourage him to get in a band situation. He could hate it right off. She did not apply for the performance major at Berklee; she applied for the Professional Music major. She has learned that you need more business, marketing, etc. and this major allows for that.

Is this something that he REALLY wants to do or is it something that he THINKS he wants to do? Does he even know enough right now to make that decision? How can he get some real world experience?

RockBandMom

mazewanderer · August 27, 2011, 11:16pm

Thank you all for you advice and for some of the PM’s that I received.

I did talk with the instructor at USC. He said that my son could be competitive at USC and other institutions but a lot depended on what he did from now to year from now, when he would really be looking at the admissions process. His suggestion was that he should continue to practice, try and continue to take music lessons (he suggested we should try the nearby state U with a music school to see if some of the instructors there could give private lessons) etc. He appeared to be encouraging but made it clear that my son had some very hard work to do.

In other words, I have some more direction but possibly not the clarity I was hoping for, and we need to try and keep him moving. Unfortunately, he is not a very social person, I am not sure if he is really up to performing in band that goes from town to town or even understands the grind. At this stage, I am just hoping that a light bulb goes of in his head and he is able to make informed decisions.

Again, please provide me any other thoughts you may have and I am sure I will be posting more questions in this forum. Thank you all for your responses.

abuwalker · August 28, 2011, 10:09am

My daughter sings and performs with a local Rock University program. The kids go for 3-month sessions. About a dozen kids learn about bunch of different classic rock songs and do a couple of gigs (some at “real” venues) at the end of the session. It gives the sense of performing this music, without the hassle of being in an independent band.

One of our guitar players is truly amazing. If you kid has talent, it will show!

My daughter does this for fun, but it has really developed her stage presence and performance skills. She also sings in her school vocal groups, and does drama. This is something totally different and she loves it!

And this rocker-mom loves it too!

Need advice (lots of it) for a bright kid who wants to be rock star

CONNECT WITH US