Need help with NY 8th grade course placement "twice exceptional child". (Long story, sorry)

Parents Forum
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<p>I’ll say it: OP is getting in her son’s way, prolonging his situation. OP provides TMI and TMIOT (too much info off track) and B&B (blame and more blame.) OP has had years to do something about this. I fear for this kid.</p>

<p>The imminent issue is not getting another evaluation. YES IT IS. It is about getting the right evaluation, one that can help your son with the RIGHT responses. </p>

<p>Not you tried this or that. Or teachers said this or that. Or you are ill. Or your daughter. Or asthma. Or the dang algebra you want him to do just enough in to get to high school.</p>

<p>We are not hyper focusing on algebra because we see every conventional sign you are in his way. Why? If he had a physical manifestation of an issue, would you delay proper tests, tell teachers how to accommodate him and expect full compliance? Blame them?</p>

<p>I read every dang word. Why won’t you get what a thread full of smart posters, including educators, advocates? </p>

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<p>Question for those in NY. Where I live, algebra I is a 9th grade course. geometry 10th grade, algebra 2 11th grade and precalculus in 12th grade. Students taking algebra I in 8th grade are actually accelerated. Is this the same in NY state?</p>

<p>And to the OP as an FYI, if YPU are concerned that your kid won’t be taking calculus in high school if he isn’t accelerated now…that is NOT really important in the grand scheme of things. One of my kids was 8th in her class, and never took calculus in HS (because we mean parents refused to allow her to go the accelerated route in 8th grade…and she was a terrific math student). We felt that a solid foundation in math was far more important than the accelerated track. This kid has a bachelors degree in engineerig from a fine college. Her good foundation in math boxed her very well when it came time for upper level courses.</p>

<p>In short…what I’m saying to the OP…let your kid have an excellent foundation in math. It is far more important than squeaking by.</p>

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<p>Since you have an older daughter, you know that school will only get harder, especially for a poor reader. And maybe some of his difficulty with algebra involves the reading. I am just speculating, but reading/writing is in everything - even the math/science classes. </p>

<p>It is true that getting a diagnosis doesn’t automatically make your son’s life easier. But, it does give some direction, it informs the remediation. The bottom line is, he isn’t reading. I have known kids like this and, unfortunately, it doesn’t make for a bright future. On the other hand, a relative of mine has severe dyslexia. And after many years of IEP’s, lots of work over the summer, staying back 1 year, etc., he is doing amazingly well. He is in honors classes in math and sciences. His mom has done a tremendous amount of work with him, and advocated for him. But, it was within the structure of his public school. And, FYI, they are not in a very good public school district. But, he has gotten the help he needs. It is a lot of work and will be all through school.</p>

<p>Instead of shutting the door on public school, I suggest you give it a chance. What have you got to lose at this point?</p>

<p>I know you are looking for math placement solutions. Given the fact that so many people here who seem to be quite knowledgable (either as parents of LD kids or teachers) have given consistent advice, and see something going on (not limited to the math problem) based on what you have reported, I don’t know why you would ignore it all.</p>

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<p>Not in NY, but algebra 1 in 8th is not considered advanced or accelerated here. </p>

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<p>In our NY school and all of the suburban schools around me, the standard is Algebra 1 in 9th grade. Algebra in 8th grade is considered accelerated by 1 year. At many of the private schools, the standard is Algebra 1 in 8th grade. If a child doesn’t do well in it, they repeat it in 9th grade.</p>

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<p>I’m a former IEP parent. My experience is that private schools often have little patience (or resources) for implementing accommodations for learning issue. You’ll have a better reception in public, where they are committed to educating everyone. </p>

<p>In my area of NY, an IEP allows the child to be placed in the most suitable classroom without regard to district. So I think selling your house and moving may not be necessary. Call your CSE and ask. </p>

<p>Also re: To Kill a Mockingbird and The Crucible. My IEP guy also had difficulty with inference at that age. It’s not a matter of the kids being sheltered or into sports rather than Hannah Montana. It’s a skill the some kids master easily and others need more help with. The demand of the teacher was not unreasonable. But if your son needs help learning that skill, a reading specialist will be able to help him. Public schools have access to reading specialists. Your current private may not have that kind of person on staff. </p>

<p>Regarding your imminent math question, if I were you, I’d take him out of Algebra and let him tackle the subject again next year in the 9th grade – perhaps then in an environment more suited to his unique needs. No shame in that, many kids take that class in 9th grade.</p>

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<p>I really don’t think the issue here is whether or not this kid is advanced a year in math or whether or not he’ll manage to finish calculus. I think it’s whether or not he’s going to flunk out of high school. He needs to get his act together and he needs both professional evaluation and regular support from the OP (eg. instead of saying he avoids reading, make him sit down and do it, and make him read out loud so you know he’s really doing it). Also be willing to consider that perhaps he’s not as bright as you think he is. You’re basing that on one test given in 4th grade, and he’s had lackluster performance at best in school since then. You’ve blamed his poor performance on lousy algebra teachers (both of them?) and on incomprehensible common core instruction materials. I don’t know, was the Regents rewritten for common core, or is that separate? Are all gifted students now struggling to pass the Regents or is this just your son’s issue? Maybe your expectations are a little too high here. Again, something that a thorough professional evaluation could help with. </p>

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<p>@whatapainthisis:
Re: Math - he should not go back to 8th grade math. He should either stay in his current math class, OR take it online + W/ Khan Academy, and enroll in another class at school during that period (I suggest visual arts, shop, or something that does not involve reading but involves building or creating, since that’s what he likes). That second solution may be better for all involved.</p>

<p>Next: he’s not going to get into the high school you want for him. With his current grades, the academic struggles that will appear in his recommendations, his 69 on Regents, he will not get into a decent private high school and not the #1 you wish for him, which sounded competitive - some of these schools only admit students who got an 85 on their Regents, strong recommendations, etc. So, it’s time to regroup and prepare for next year.
In order to do well, you and your son need to understand what obstacle he’s facing: dyslexia? dyspraxia? there can be so many things which interfere with understanding what one reads. You already took care of the possible physical cause (convergence), so now it’s time to move to the other possibilities. It can be convergence AND dyslexia, for instance.</p>

<p>If the local public high school doesn’t work (and there ARE really bad high schools in rural areas), is there one that he can transfer to? And that’s where the IEP can come in: public high schools MUST accomodate IEPs. If they can’t - if your local public school can’t - then your son WILL be accomodated somewhere - another public school WILL have to accomodate him. But first, you need to know what exactly causes him to suffer so much. It IS something. So, call and get that appointment. He’ll have the test in a month and the results on time to justify a meeting with the local high school. If the local high school can’t accomodate him, then another school will have to. If you need to move, this will “buy” you a year. In addition, the IEP will “explain” any bad grade in high school and will help him get into college - a 78 from an IEP kid is not viewed the same as a 78 from non-IEP kid. The IEP kid is seen as struggling but doing his best and being courageous, while the other kid is seen as just lazy and not caring about his academics. Finally, if you do a full battery of tests as you originally planned to (and it sounds like you intend to do), like Slackermom said “WlSC-IV, WoodcockJohnson, Gray Oral Reading Tests, Gray Silent Reading Tests, Woodcock Reading Mastery Tests, Test of Visual Perceptual Skills”. This will not be just “another diagnosis”. This will outline your child’s strengths, his weaknesses (we all have them) and any skill where he might need a specific remediation. It could mean working with a special tutor, extra time on exams and standardized tests (including SAT’s), a quiet room, etc, etc. The private school where he is won’t be forced to follow through with it, but you’ll be able to use the IEP for the high school level.</p>

<p>I find it troublesome that your son wouldn’t know what rape is. That can be potentially dangerous for him. That’s not being “innocent”, that’s not knowing things one needs to know (graphic details aren’t necessary and To Kill a Mockingbird isn’t graphic at all since it’s told from the point of view of a child - but being able to infer that rape is sexual violence and that it’s both kept quiet and seen as shameful, AND very, very wrong, would be very important for a 13 year old.) However that can probably be explained from not reading and not watching TV, indeed, as well as receiving no “health” education in 5-8. It could also be that he knew what rape was (as an abstract, which is fine) but didn’t infer it from his reading - infering is hard to do, especially when you’re not used to reading. It’s a completely different issue if he didn’t know, but he may just have had trouble inferring meaning, which relates to his problem with reading.</p>

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<p>Homeschool him. Sorry, but it seems like no other options thus far have met with your approval. If you refuse to expand the scope of your investigations into the root cause of your son’s issues, then they will likely not improve with time, and the same educational settings. Change is difficult. Good luck.</p>

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<p>“The topic of discussion is my imminent issue of handling this math issue. The last time I had an appt. with a highly recommended neuropsych, she booked me a month in advance, and she had essentially retired, but agreed to see my son and get it done because of who I am and who I know. When I call again, it’s going to be the same, an appointment in a month.”</p>

<p>A month is going to pass regardless of whether you get him evaluated or don’t. </p>

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<p>Plus…she booked you a month in advance, but you never HAD the neuropsych done (didn’t you say she canceled?). </p>

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<p>OP-- I’m sure that after several exhausting years trying to help your son, and now several days worth of suggestions on this thread, you are about ready to throw in the towel, pour yourself a glass of wine and decide your done with the Educational Industrial Complex.</p>

<p>But I want to tell you (you can believe me or not) that your problem isn’t algebra. There is not a single job that can support a young man that doesn’t require strong reading skills. Not a one. Unless your son plans to become a migrant worker, he needs to get back on track with his reading. It’s not about reading novels and knowing what rape is; it’s about showing up on day one at virtually any job at a big company and being seated in front of a computer terminal to begin training. The days of having a stand-up instructor training the new hires is coming to an end. It’s one big Word document, broken up by some very wordy Powerpoints and a couple of dense spreadsheets. </p>

<p>Forget about the math. Forget about how quick he is and how gifted he is, and what morons we ALL are on this thread for telling you he needs a neuropsych eval. Whatever his future career plans are (besides major league ball player) he needs to get his reading back on track. He doesn’t ever need to be a person who wants to pick up a novel in his spare time. But unless he can sit down with a dense article (think Economist or the Atlantic) and read it, understand what he’s read (not skimming, but read for comprehension) you are going to find his frustration level in HS and beyond completely off the charts.</p>

<p>There are kids who sadly have had accidents which have damaged their frontal lobe- and the parents are so grateful that the kid is alive that the issue of reading, and being on grade level, and getting into college or getting a job is moot- as it should be. By your child is healthy- thank god- and so you are lucky that with a comprehensive diagnosis you can get him back on track.</p>

<p>There are kids with significant learning disabilities who have a phenomenal ability somewhere else- artistic, mathematical, etc. But unless your kid is the next Baryshnikov, he still needs to graduate from HS knowing how to read. And not skimming, and not remembering something from a movie- reading.</p>

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<p>Op…just curious…are you the mother or father of this student? What does the OTHER parent say about this situation? </p>

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<p>whatapainthisis,</p>

<p>I agree that this is a long exhausting thread (reminds me of the song that never ends). However, I think that you are not seeing the forest for the trees. While you seem to be stuck right now wanting to know what to do about the math; math is only one of the 5 regents that your son will have to pass to complete high school. Under the new regs, which includes 8th grades, if he retakes in june, he will still have to take the Common Core exam for the new score to be valid especially if he is sitting in Algebra (it will be the higher of the 2 scores that will be used for graduation requirements).</p>

<p>You need to look at your child and his situation and determine what he needs to be successful in the long range.</p>

<p>If he is struggling with reading, how will he pass the English regents (which will be the new common core exam when he enters high school)? </p>

<p>How will he be able to do the document based and theme based essays required for him to pass the US and Global history (which covers 2 years of work where any and everything in world history is up for grabs)? How will he pass the science regents? </p>

<p>Is there a plan for him to get an advanced regents diploma, which will also include the LOTE?</p>

<p>Are you looking to be really ambitious and have him obtain an advanced regents diploma with mastery in math and science (where he has to get an 85 in 3 math regents and 3 science regents)?</p>

<p>Yes, these are things that you have to think about now. If there is a slight possibility that your child can be benefitted from an IEP, you can obtain one. As I stated upstream, if your son has an IEP that cannot be accommodated in the public school system, that is how you will get your Nickerson letter for the Dept of Ed to pay for your child to attend private school on their dime. It will be the IEP that will list the services that your child needs; integrated co-teaching, SETTS, Special classes, therapies, counseling, etc. The IEP will establish long and short term goals. It will be the IEP that will allow him to register fro ACCES-VR through NYSED, that will allow him free life time job training or if college is in is Employment plan, will provide funding to help offset some of the cost (at the CUNY/SUNY rate) for college.</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.acces.nysed.gov/vr/current_provider_information/vocational_rehabilitation/policies_procedures/0405_college_and_university_training/policy.htm”>http://www.acces.nysed.gov/vr/current_provider_information/vocational_rehabilitation/policies_procedures/0405_college_and_university_training/policy.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>If you have gone this far with your son, continue to fight the good fight and fight just one more battle, that could make the difference in how your child lives not only 8th grade, but high school, college and the rest of his life</p>

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<p>I totally agree with Sybbie.</p>

<p>I just want to add, the IEP process starts with your request to the public schools for an EVALUATION. There can be NO IEP without appropriate identification of needs, and a disability. And all of this begins with a comprehensive evaluation.</p>

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<p><a href=“http://www.education.nh.gov/instruction/school_health/faq_504.htm”>http://www.education.nh.gov/instruction/school_health/faq_504.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p><a href=“http://www.ncld.org/disability-advocacy/learn-ld-laws/adaaa-section-504/section-504-idea-comparison-chart”>http://www.ncld.org/disability-advocacy/learn-ld-laws/adaaa-section-504/section-504-idea-comparison-chart&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>compares IDEA and 504</p>

<p>I recommend , OP to narrow down the primary focus/concern as its too easy to get lost in your detail. And yes- get a good neuropsych</p>

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<p>I’ve read through all the posts and while I don’t have any direct experience with IEPs and testing for kids with learning issues, I have a grandson who has an IEP and gets lots of help both at school and outside of school. He started at a private school and the school administrators told my stepdaughter that the school simply didn’t have resources to help her son. It seems like worrying about your son passing math is akin to someone worrying about moving the deck chairs on the Titanic as the ship is going down. Seems that nearly every poster with experience and knowledge agrees that getting an evaluation is the way to go. Is there only one neuro-psych person in your area who can do this evaluation?? I’m sure it must be really difficult and frustrating to try to figure out the best path for your son, but you definitely need a plan to move forward, especially to figure out the sources of his reading difficulties. Good luck.</p>

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<p>We have a loved one who dropped out of HS because of what we believe are undiagnosed LDs. He is now 23 and still has no HS diploma nor GED. He also has self esteem issues because he can’t get a decent full time job and even as trouble keeping part time jobs. Believe he has problems reading which limit his job options further. </p>

<p>Agree that now is the time to get any LDs diagnosed and addressed before he starts feeling DUMB and that school isn’t for him. There are very few jobs paying decently in the US that don’t require good reading comprehension. </p>

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<p>I think that the basic misunderstanding about IEP is that it is for kids who are deficit…it is first and foremost an Individiual Educational Plan and it works for kids who who considered “gifted” in elementary years but have an individual area of deficit as well as kids who have deficit learning capabilities in general. I always think it is a miss to not understand what is right in front of one’s nose and to not use those assets when you have kids that need them. Being deamed “gifted” as an elementary student means nothing in the face of what kids are confronted with as they migrate into the middle schools and high schools. I have a “gifted” son with an LD so to some extend “I get it.” </p>

<p>The problem here is that the OP has no idea what is going on without testing. It is of equal probability that her son has a learning disability as it is her son has a behavioral issue but there is no way to address the issue at hand without the insight that testing will bring. The longer the OP waits the harder it will become to put a plan in place. </p>

<p>I don’t know about the OP, but I was “with” my kids maybe 5 hours a day…and the teachers were “with” my kids an equal amount of hours. I think the OP needs to drop the animosity toward the teachers and the school and not only have her son tested for LDs but to try and get some clear, unbiased opinion about her son…painful as that may be so that the outcome of testing is additive and to have some path to follow. If not, it’s simply guesswork and grasping at straws. </p>

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<p>Our public school district isn’t amazing but I was able to find schools within the system & worked to make them work.
If you live somewhere that does not have education for children as a priority at all, & the schools are truly bad, then it can make a huge difference to move somewhere more family friendly, where children are considered when the town decides to spend money.
A public schools has a mandate to educate all, a private school does not obviously.</p>