<p>The neighborhood one lives in - is by choice - and by choosing that neighborhood - one also chooses to live by the ‘rules’ that can - or cannot - be applied to everyone in it equally.</p>
<p>I realize it may be difficult to be gracious at times - but we all need to consider that not everyone lives as we do - and to accept what one can’t change and not let it cause those hard feelings that can develop between neighbors - I would prefer to enjoy my neighbors.</p>
<p>I see a lot of people who sound like Connie, they “lost” their spouse and children are not around. They live alone and here every creek. Their fears are not usually warranted but taking action gives them back some control. Try to be kind to these people, they can be awfully lonely.</p>
<p>Well, I think there would still be a fence even if the side lot weren’t shared. The property line would just be nearer or closer.</p>
<p>I’m curious about no one having fences in the neighborhood. What do people do with their dogs? And the small kids? (Though I always stayed outside with mine in the yard anyhow).</p>
<p>I think taking out survey markers is a crime most places. Though NY’s child obviously didn’t mean anything by it, it probably would be a good idea to pay for the re-survey to avoid adding any more problems to the situation, no different than if your kid accidentally broke a window with a baseball.</p>
<p>My guess is that part of the reason Connie is doing what she’s doing and doesn’t want to include others in her plans is that she feels isolated and alone in dealing with the troublesome kids, so she might as well handle this herself too. Senior women can be very isolated, even surrounded by people-- especially these days, when it’s all one family can do to manage its own routine, without checking to see if Mrs. Jones needs her gutters cleaned out or anything from the store. It sounds like this situation is going to compound any isolation unfortunately.</p>
<p>ETA: UCM, I see we were thinking sort of on the same lines.</p>
<p>On the survey stake issue: in my neck of the woods, the surveyer pounds a pipe into the ground and the wood marker with the flag is just a visual cue. The actual survey marker may very well still be accessible.</p>
<p>I agree with other posters that Connie seems to feel alone, threatened and not really a part of the neighborhood. Whose fault is that? Does anyone ever think to include her in a backyard BBQ or make a visit or offer assistance? Certainly the neighbors with kids don’t respect her property.</p>
<p>I think it is very unfortunate for the OP to be as un-cooperative as they feel the neighbor is being - reading back - that is exactly what is happening.</p>
<p>The fence is going to happen - why not make it easier for all parties involved - accept it - and then move on and beautify your own property - and keep the neighbor lady as a neighbor - instead of alienating her. I am sure that by sending a threatening letter it won’t make the situation any better. If you are uncomfortable with the survey - have your own done and then do everything in your power to let the fence be put in - in a nice and supportive manner - instead of nit-picking this poor woman and causing everyone involved more stress.</p>
<p>
I feel bad for the woman. This sounds like a very unfriendly neighborhood :mad: who doesn’t really care about Connie’s problem or her property value. Hey, live and let live. 
</p>
<p>The real source of the problem is the juvenile delinquents living behind Connie, and they have in fact bothered other neighbors too. So instead of spending energy on the fence issue, why don’t the neighbors work on the juvenile delinquent issue???</p>
<p>okay…honestly…I think you all are feeding off each other a bit. NYMom has only taken a firm stand after it was clear her neighbor refused to even discuss the issue (so who is the unfriendly party?) and she has conceded the neighbor has a right to do as she wishes, in the absence of deed restrictions, on her property. But she is legitimately disappointed, and within HER rights to respond to the unfriendly course of action by Connie of building a structure that is offensive to everyone else around her without regard for the effect it will have on property values of her neighbors (again, who is the unfriendly party?)</p>
<p>It’s a shame there are no deed restrictions or local ordinances to protect NYMom and clearly she accepts she will now have to spend money to remedy the situation. As far as notifying Connie of her expectations with regarding the fencing and her own property, NYMom is wise to do so if Connie intends to build a fence ‘within 2 inches of the property line’. Better to do Connie a favor and let her know she will have a problem if she accidentally encroaches on her neighbors’ property with her fence. It’s a legal issue that affects future transfers of property. Connie shouldn’t be the least bit offended by the letter and should want to take care she does not commit accidental trespass since she is building this fence to keep others from trespassing on HER property.</p>
<p>UCgradmary - I have to laugh at your choice of words ‘I feel your pain’. When we built our home there was tall forest behind us, but we knew the area was subdivided and homes were inevitable. We weren’t too worried because the area behind us was a big cul-de-sac with huge lots. When a home was built we were really pleased by the layout of the new home and the beautiful trees that were preserved. The back of our lot abutted to a isolated corner of this neighbors cul-de-sac lot, so all was good…until one day when I noticed workers moving lumber in that isolated corner. When it became clear they were building a three story play structure less than 5 feet from the privacy fence, I became concerned. It was directly behind our swimming pool and visible from every window in our home. It was so close and so tall, anyone in the play structure could look into our windows. It similarly violated the privacy of two other neighbors. I threw together some cookies on a tray, went over to introduce myself and humbly ask if we could talk about the location of the play structure. My new neighbor looked at me and said the play structure was going in that corner because she didn’t want to ‘have it spoil the view from her windows’. When I pointed out she had such a huge yard and so many options for the play structure that would make her and all her neighbors happy, she said ‘I feel your pain’ and shut the door in my face. </p>
<p>As it turns out she violated deed restriction and we were able to force her to remove the structure from the utility easement and lower the structure a height to under 10 feet. By the time the paper work went through she had already built the thing, so it was huge hassle and expense for her to have it broken down and moved. She still had the structure located as close as possible to our property and another neighbor’s property and as far as possible from hers…which was her right to do. And it is an eyesore for us and her neighbors (but not her…sigh). They actually have parties where drunken adults climb into the structure and peek over fences just to be annoying…lol! Needless to say, we are not close.</p>
<p>But, point is this… we both lost because there was no open channel of constructive communication. My neighbor was entrenched from the get-go and nothing good comes of that attitude. Since my husband joined our HOA Board (after the play structure incident), he has been a big advocate of communication between neighbors and goes out his way to bring conflicting parties to ‘peace talks’ before things escalate. Much easier and cheaper to get parties on all sides to accept compromise…and most importantly, it preserves relationships. In our case, we had no such advocate of peace and harmony on our Board available to us (they actually encouraged us to sue…lol!) </p>
<p>If Connie had come to the ‘peace talks’, she could have had her fence, her feeling of security and neighbors who would have gladly looked out for her. Now all she has is a fence.</p>
<p>I disagree that Connie won’t be offended by the letter. Did you read the same post I did? It accused her of lowering property values and said they would do what they could to make building the fence difficult for her.</p>
<p>I totally agree things would have been much better if Connie had talked about this with her neighbors. Certainly she has lost their good will which is a terrible situation for an elderly person living alone. All have lost here.</p>
<p>However, I keep focus on the issue that the woman is doing something totally within her rights and that the OPs problem is truly a matter of opinion (wouldn’t matter if it were fact though). I think many people would choose the black chain link over a picket fence. I would. Someone needs to take the high road here and try to keep peace in the neighborhood. Why wage a fight you’re unlikely to win with a frightened old woman? I honestly believe that if the OP lives in an area with valuable, mostly dated homes, she has much bigger issues to think about as the housing market rebounds than Connie’s fence.</p>
<p>IDmom, I understand your position better after reading your play structure story. Having a neighbor tell you they are saving their view at the expense of yours and not knowing the regs would make anyone want to fight. Funny, I have a friend who has a similar story. She was the one that put in the structure and really didn’t know they were regulated. Her neighbors had a cow and called the city instead of talking to them. They were forced to move the structure from next to their driveway to next to their pool!</p>
<p>My neighbor just built a new sunroom within 10 feet of our back fence. I called the town to make sure it was within the regulations, it was, so I told him his hideous new room was lovely. What can you do?</p>
<p>Why does nobody address the source of the problem? If the rear neighbors would maintain control of their delinquent teenage boys, there would be no problem for anyone. Perhaps a friendly visit from the local police would jolt the parents into reality.</p>
<p>lkf-
I can’t seem to find a post that identifies the unruly kids behind these 3 neighbors (Don, Connie and the OP) as teenaged boys. Somehow, and I am not sure why, I got the idea that they were younger than that. Either way, I certainly agree that while a visit from the cops might be an eye-opener, the police frequently don’t like to get involved in neighborhood disputes. Now if a crime has occurred and there is convincing evidence that it was committed by the little stinkers who live behind them, then perhaps the police will respond. This might even be a good way of getting Connie, Don and the OP to be allies, on the same “team”, as it were, in an attempt to solve a problem that they all share. </p>
<p>I have to wonder what the relationship with “Connie” has been like before all this? Was she a sweet, grandmotherly type who bought lemonade from the neighborhood kids lemonade stands and bought girl scout cookies and wrappig paper for the school fundraisers even when she didnt need it, or is she the type who turns out her lights and hides in the back of her house on Halloween and ignores the trick-or-treaters? Is she was a sweet little old lady who is the matriarch in the neighborhood, or is she a crabby old battleaxe? This matters because it might affect how willing the neighbors (Don and the OP) might be in being kind and conciliatory to Connie. To be honest, I can understand how Don and the OP feel. Connie doesn’t seem to care much about their feelings. Why should they go out of their way to help her? They tried to reach out to her in an attempt to address her needs and to problem-solve in a congenial way. Connie was not receptive. Sorry, I don’t see Connie as a poor helpless “victim” here. While she may be acting within her “rights” she is being self-focused, and not considering the feelings of her neighbors. I would hope that she would at least have discussed it in a mature fasion, and heard what her neighbors had to say. Even if she didn’t change her mind, at least she has treated her neighbors with courtesy. That goes a long way.</p>
<p>Having lived in a number of neighborhoods where the neighbors did exactly what they pleased (never lived in a gated community or “homeowner association” one, so it is every owner for himself, within the law), I am fascinated both that Connie let people know her fence plans in advance, and that the neighbors thought they could persuade her otherwise.</p>
<p>I am used to neighbors cutting down trees, knocking down or building, putting up fences, etc. with not so much as a peep to the rest of the neighborhood, unless there were issues of variances or zoning.</p>
<p>And yes, often other people’s changes to their properties have affected ours, both in privacy, view, or cost. We had to spend thousands of dollars in hedges and plantings at one house. Unfortunately, these are the joys of private home ownership, and there isn’t a lot you can do about it.</p>
<p>If NYMom has talked to neighbor and if neighbor is legally within her rights to install fence then it is time to drop the matter. </p>
<p>Over a decade ago I sold a house in a great neighborhood due to a fence. I replaced a chain link fence with a wood fence and I expanded the fence to include my side yard on a corner lot. My D had reached the age when she had lots of friends over and we planned to install a play structure and swing set which needed to be fenced in.</p>
<p>The first I knew of any problems with the neighbors who by the way all had wooden fences for their yards was when I came home to find a verbal stop order from the city on my answering machine. I had to have my survey redone and the fence crew had to leave posts standing. It took six weeks before the fence installation crew could return and they would not return until I had a letter from the city allowing the work.</p>
<p>The job proceeded and the city told me they received at least a dozen calls every day from individuals complaining about the fence. They told me they had never received so many calls about a fence. </p>
<p>One neighbor told me I had devalued his property by $50,000 as he could no longer see the wonderful landscaping in my yard. He said he had taken photos of his before and after view to show a real estate agent and that he was going to sue me for loss of his “view”.</p>
<p>We had long term plans to stay in the neighborhood and build an addition to our home which was the smallest in the neighborhood. After the fence issue we started a search for another home and neighborhood as I realized that if a fence installation caused so much turmoil how much furor an addition to our house would cause.</p>
<p>It was a nasty episode that still makes me ill to think about. Today is the first day I have ever written anything about my fence problem.</p>
<p>Don’t make things worse for your neighbor. She has enough to deal with. The love of her life does not know her anymore and his nursing care is costing everything they had saved for their retirement. She and her husband had plans for a wonderful retirement and those plans are gone forever. She probably has more friends who are dead than alive. Her children visit infrequently. </p>
<p>When her home becomes too much of a maintenance burden she will most likely sell and move to a retirement community - she put the home up for sale once so she is already thinking of selling. Right now she is just tired - her life has not turned out the way she wanted and she is alone and no one cares.</p>
<p>Don’t send a letter - it’s something that can be shown to her children or an attorney and could be considered harassment if she is within her legal rights to install the fence. She is someone’s mother and think about how you’d like your own mom to be treated.</p>
<p>Allmusic,
You may be right-- perhaps the fact that there isn’t a homeowner’s association where the OP lives that causes one to think (about the impact of their choice on others) before they do something on their own property has something to do with it. That is a shame that your neighbors cut down trees and put up fences that keep you from shoveling your snow away easily! Was that really their reason? My, how petty of them! I had always had a tendency to think of our Homeowners Association as restricting personal choice, but now I see that is really causes all of us to think about the impact our choices make on others. We have landscaping that we share with neighbors on one side, and we always check with them before we do something to it (and they with us). On the other side, former neighbors pointed out that there was a dead pine tree in a back area (it sloped down, we couldnt really see it or notice it). They said it had fallen over and part of it was in their yard (also in an area hard to see) but they were planning to put their house on the market and wanted to get rid of the tree that was on their side. We offered to get rid of the whole thing, at our expense, as it was our tree (and we did). A lot of it has to do with how a situation is handled, as to whether people are willing to work together to problem-solve or not.</p>
<p>How does sending Connie a letter stating no part of the fence may be located outside her property and workers may not trespass outside that property constitute harassment? Westcoastmom - I appreciate your sensitivity…but I think you may be reading a lot between the lines about what Connie thinks and feels. She could be the old battle axe Jym describes for all we know…lol!</p>
<p>This is such timely discussion for me. I’ve been trying to figure out how to approach my retired neighbors about their plantings overhanging our fence. We’ve ignored it for the last two growing seasons, but it is a big problem now with poisonous oleanders that have not been ever been trimmed bowing down over a 7 foot privacy fence toward the ground on our side of the fence. I have a tiny dog that I cannot allow out in the yard alone because the blooms and sap on oleanders are sweet but deadly…and believe it or not, a small amount will actually kill a horse.</p>
<p>I know I’m within my rights to cut those things, but when I do there will be nothing left of them above the fence. That’s how overgrown and distorted their shape has become. These neighbors use to be big gardeners until the husband became ill a few years ago, so I hope when I offer to have the work done for them, they’ll take it in the spirit intended (me trying to help us both) and not get upset. I’m gonna go easy and gentle and see what happens. But I am getting those oleanders out of my yard.</p>
<p>Westcoastmom,
How your former neighbors treated you, and the bad taste it left in your mouth, is awful. Perhaps if they had picked up the phone to call you as your fence was being constructed, and asked in a courteous way to chat with you, things might have turned out differently. Sadly, the new owners of your home got to reap the benefit of your fence without dealing with the wrath of your former neighbors. No justice. Loss of value for not being able to see your yard and landscaping? That’s a good one! </p>
<p>Now, as for Connie, the OP said that “her husband is in a home with dementia.” That doesn’t necessarily mean that “The love of her life does not know her anymore and his nursing care is costing everything they had saved for their retirement.” That is a bit of a stretch. Perhaps her husband is in a lovely, fancy-schmansy expensive, assisted living facility getting better care than Connie could provide. Perhaps she wanted to dump him and didn’t want to deal with his needs. Who knows. There are lots of different kinds and stages of dementia, and just because he is no longer living in their home doesn’t mean he is totally out of it , drooling in a cup. But I digress…</p>
<p>Unfortunately no one can open the eyes of those who will not see. If the little old lady has made up her mind, then the OP and Don can politely, and courtesously, do what is best for them as well.</p>
<p>We also decided on a new home rather than adding to our old one. We lived in an area where the oldtimers tried to stop second story building but failed. All of the old homes were torn down when they came on the market and replaced with much larger 2 story homes. Our block, being the lowest cost in the area hadn’t started this gentrification yet, and we would have been the first 2 story home on the street. We would have looked into several yards. We simply didn’t want to deal with being the first on the block to do this, and with real estate prices falling, it might be years before the developers came back.</p>
<p>We have a whole new set of issues in our new home which is on a smaller but ocean facing lot. Our association regulates tree heights, what hedge’s you may plant, color of home, a 2 car garage at minimum, and 20 pages more!</p>
<p>I don’t know if these neighborly disputes are better when one does have a homeowner’s association. As I said, we have never lived with one, and have witnessed countless terrible neighborly disputes, and these are ones that didn’t even involve me (yes, Jym, the neighbor who installed the fence did so because of the snow…she used to stand outside as we shoveled and tell us not to put a single shovelful on her “side”)…but lawsuits costing thousands and thousands of dollars over the tiniest property line issues, etc. Worse than the money (perhaps) is the fact that former friendly neighbors now hate one another, and sometimes have moved as a result.</p>
<p>I would be curious to see whether these things were better when all the laws are laid out in a home association 20 page manual.</p>
<p>This alternative may not quite fit the OP’s situation, but there is another fence option that provides the open view of chain link. It’s decorative aluminum, such as Jerith fencing. It looks like wrought iron (at least until you’re within a couple of feet) but is cheaper and requires no maintenance, and it comes in several styles and heights. We used a style with a pointed picket top in black in a very traditional neighborhood, and within the year over a dozen neighbors had installed it also. It met the requirements for a pool enclosure for our area, too. If the OP’s neighbor hasn’t already signed a contract with a fence company, it might be worth asking her to consider this possibility, with her side neighbors paying for the sections on their common property lines. It would be much more attractive than chain link and probably provide better security, too. Just a thought -</p>
<p>I like that fencing, Robi! Is is cheaper than chain link? </p>
<p>And Allmusic- Are the neighbors who went nutzo about the snow shoveling the same ones whose grandkids spit on your driveway? Sheesh. And where did they shovel their snow? Wow. Amazing what some people will bicker over.</p>
<p>On the other extreme, we used to have neighbors with 3 generations living there, and the older generation didn’t speak much English (these are the ones that asked us about cutting off part of a dead tree and we took care of the whole thing). Anyway, their garage was on the side near our bedroom. Apparently they had a bit of a “disagreement” one night out in the driveway. The next day several of us received written apologies for any disturbance they might have caused, in our mailbox. Those are the right kind of neighbors.</p>
<p>IMHO I just think this is a mountain out of a mole-hill situation - and hard feelings are sure to reign supreme in the long run. It could have been managed much better and saved the neighorly situation. </p>
<p>Obviously Connie has made up her mind to put up a fence - the neighbors don’t like and have counter-acted with what I would certainly consider to be threatening message - and it all could have been discussed in a much more pro-active fashion. Now it seems the poor lady next door is being ganged up on - in a my way or the high way type of scenerio. She is going to dig her heels in and nothing positive will be accomplished - I do feel sorry for this lady.</p>
<p>So I guess it will end up as - let the games begin - cuz that is where it is headed.</p>
<p>I guess when handed lemons - some don’t know how to make lemonaide - and share it as well. That is really a shame.</p>