But did the neighbor disclose her insurance company? And will the insurance company do anything without the survey? I think a survey needs to be done (and paid for), and the dead tree owner can’t be forced to pay for the survey. If the tree falls, it looks like there is documentation that the danger was known by the dead tree owner, so their insurance company would be on the hook. It definitely would be morally wrong to wait and see, but (and this depends on local laws) legally I don’t think she can be forced to pay to remove it. Where I live we have a problem with folks taking down healthy trees on their property, you either pay for a permit, or get a report stating the tree is dead.
Terrific. Have your lawyer send a registered letter to the homeowner explaining that she has 10 days to complete the survey and then remove the tree. On day 11 you will be letting the city/town/county know that she’s in violation of the “blight” requirement (or whatever your town calls it) by refusing to address a hazardous situation on her property which could harm someone on the adjacent properties.
Then let your town show up with its own workers, a chainsaw, and miles of yellow police tape to take care of it.
Honestly, this is ridiculous. Property rights are one thing, but I don’t know any municipality that would allow a homeowner to maintain a dangerous situation on their land if it impacts the neighboring homes. You have a biting dog? Good for you. The dog bites the kid next door? The next phone call is to animal control. Nobody has the right to pretend that a dead tree is a “property rights” issue when it could shear off someone’s kitchen when it falls.
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I was referring to the SIL’s insurance company. Their insurance would most likely be on the hook for some costs, so they may have some options for for the homeowner.
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Have the lawyer cc the insurance company on that letter, if you go that route.
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I didn’t think this was true re: municipalities, so I looked up ours. And in my town, the Public Works Dept does have the right to take down a hazardous tree and reclaim the cost. The property owner is given 15 days to appeal the notice.
However, if OP lives in the county I think she does, I looked on their website and it says:
Property Owners are Responsible for Trees Located on their Property
{County Name} has no legal authority to require the removal of hazardous tree(s) that are located on private property unless the tree(s) threaten the public at large.
When there is a dispute between neighbors about a potentially hazardous tree, this is a civil issue and {County Name} will not take action in these situations.
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My town has the same requirement as yours… and it happens frequently. I don’t know where OP lives… but since OP’s town admits that it’s a civil issue- that means the courts are set up to do what the town won’t…
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It DOES sound like there may be a question about whose property the tree is on. The SIL says the neighbor’s – by 12 inches. That’s not a lot of room for error. And while SIL is probably right, there are tons of onstances where someone has found a fence , driveway, shed, etc “over the line” in good faith.
I understand SIL’s concern, AND I can also imagine how, in her concern, SIL may have presented the concern and the resulting neighbor’s desire to make sure she’s really responsible for this problem at the border of her property.
And as for wanting her own report, I have had the experience of hiring experts who will do their best to support the POV of whomever hired them and the purpose. Getting an appraisal for insurance replacement – it’ll be high. For taxing thd value of an estate – it’ll be low.
I was encouraged when I read this that it seems like progress is being made. Clearly the neighbor wants to avoid this cost. Let’s hope however it’s resolved they also don’t end up wanting to avoid SIL and family as well.
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I would refrain from starting lawyer letters until you have an estimate of the cost of removal from a qualified, properly licensed and fully insured tree removal company. Why ? Because this is a next door neighbor and it’s best to try to work things out before involving legal proceedings. Plus, legal proceedings between neighbors can turn ugly and expensive.
You can probably get a quote within a few days from a qualified contractor. Once costs are known, then decide whether or not you are willing to pay all or half or none. Again, the other property owner seems to be most concerned about the cost of removing the tree.
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I was surprised that ours had provisions in there. We constantly get calls (from within our department) for our surveyors to determine if a tree is on the right-of-way or private property. Usually when people call complaining with issues between neighbors, we say it’s a civil issue. But I don’t believe I’ve actually fielded calls about a tree… That should go to a different division in the department.
And considering how many calls we get with just R/W tree issues for 40-50K people, I can only imagine how many a place with over 1 million people would get.
I live in a place which gets snow in the winter.
A neighbor had a tree fall blocking traffic and knocking down electrical wires (just toppled over from the weight of heavy snow) and the city sent folks to get rid of it. Two weeks later a truck from the city came around the block and lopped off any branches that were hanging into the street, removed a few trees which they said were a public nuisance. Several people investigated— and the city ordinances specifically say that “hazardous growth” can be removed without notice.
I’m noticing more people keeping their trees trimmed now!
Anything that falls within the right-of-way is cleared by PW crews immediately. We have landscaping crews that take care of everything within the right-of-way all year long. We have hurricanes and tropical storms and ice storms in an area filled with 100+ year old oak trees among other varieties. We always have trees coming down (and out of power) even in minor, unnamed storms.
But that’s different than between 2 private properties - unless “any tree which, by virtue of its condition and location, endangers the life, health, or safety of any person or structure on adjacent or adjoining real property is hereby declared to be a public nuisance and prohibited.” That’s when they can get involved, but it takes time and is messy.
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Totally agree with this sentiment. And SIL is the “new” neighbor, having bought the house last year.
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I just checked our town’s ordinance, it says that if the town forester labels the tree as dead/dangerous to the public and other property, the homeowner has 30 days to remove it. After that the town will remove it, and the cost will be a lien on the property and added to property taxes. A $500 a day find is in effect after the 30 days.
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IIRC, OP’s family lives in Virginia. Those old property descriptions aren’t that reliable and change all the time. Sometimes points of reference are ‘the stake at 143.24W, 645.34.5S’ or even worse, ‘12 feet from the center of the creek bed’ and in fact there is no stake there because the earth has shifted. They have to redo the property lines and adjust. The line could go right through the middle of the tree. This may not be the only tree that is/will be at issue between the properties.
If neighbor wants to pay for a new survey, it’s probably not a bad idea. The surveyor can mark new stakes and those will probably be good for a while (until the next big flood). I wouldn’t surprise me if neighbor’s surveyor comes up with one lot line and the D/SIL’s has a different opinion.
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Oh how I can talk about old surveys! “and runs along the creek as it meanders to the center of the old dead tree.” The tree that was dead in 1904, not to mention creeks change! And distances are measured in poles and links.
We did one large scale (for us) project, where we improved several streets in an old historically African American neighborhood. We couldn’t get any surveyor to touch it. Best we could tell, most houses were built on the property lines. Not that that part mattered to us with the road, but we needed right of way from all of the properties. We wound up writing blurbs that essentially said, we have no idea where the original line is, but the new one will be here! Most of the legal owners were also long dead (by decades), so tracking down heirs (and heirs of heirs) was the other nightmarish issue…
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Hopefully there won’t be an issue with the survey.
The neighborhood was platted in the mid 1950’s so determining the property lines ought to be reasonably straight forward. No creeks anywhere near the property.
And a legal survey was done just last spring. (Requirement to get a mortgage.)
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I served on one jury. It was a boundary dispute, and boy did I hear surveyors give varying opinions. We actually had to walk the property with a description from the plaintiff…whose family had owned the land for about 200 years. She gave amazingly accurate landmarks…and descriptions of her property which she had owned for decades. The rich guy who was trying to build a barn on her property had three surveyors who insisted she was wrong. She did have a survey done for the court case that agreed with her. But it was her descriptive survey that won the jury over.
This property with the tree is part of a HOA (that won’t intervene). One would think they also have some survey that was done when the property was divided. And the neighbors likely also have one they needed to get when they got their mortgage.
I think these neighbors are just being obstinate…and likely related to the costs. BUT it will cost them a LOT more if their tree damages the OP’s SILs house…or a person gets injured.
I would have a lawyer lay this out clearly for the neighbor…and the SIL should contact his insurance and tell this saga. They might have some input because they don’t want to pay for damage someone else should have prevented.
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I wish our county had a tree ordinance. It looked like they did but I’ve contacted the department twice (the second time with some documentation that looked like code ordinance description) but the code enforcement manager has said no. Hoping the letter from the HOA board gets some traction, but it’s a little bit unclear who owns the house versus who lives in the house. It seems that it may be owned by a father and son, although there are different last names and it seems according to another neighbor that the parents or grandparents live in the house, but the son, whose name is one of the names on the deed and who did open my email a year ago, lives elsewhere.
The idea of SIL handing this off to her insurance company may solve lots of problems. They will not want to deal with preventable damage, and they can reach out directly to the neighbor’s insurance about getting a remedy.
It is clear then what is at stake, that this is about safety, and where responsibility lies. And it may be gentler on neighbor relations.
Can OP’s family’s insurance find out what insurance company the other neighbors use???