Neo-Atheists

Parent Cafe
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<p>If I understand correctly, FountainSiren has explained my point. Many people have beliefs which can be powerful and important. These beliefs are not necessarily concrete or specific or derived from reasonable logic or observation. Many of these beliefs have been developed over centuries and have many followers. This makes those beliefs important. The specific beliefs and associated rites and rituals are usually not very important. The historical background of those beliefs can be interesting but are also not very important. Any logical, scientific or intellectual discussions are all but pointless unless you enjoy the Game. </p>

<p>It is also an unfortunate fact that fervent religious beliefs are often associated with intolerance, closed minds and violent attacts on the non-believers. That is just history - - which we apparently must continue to repeat.</p>

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<p>“Where?s the intolerance here?”</p>

<p>As pardoxical as it is, I have an intolerance for intolerance, which is what religion often breeds (except for buddhism).</p>

<p>“No one in this thread, from what I have read, has suggested that you or any other atheist should believe in anything at all?god included. Not even the author of the op would be so bold or crass as to suggest that atheists should believe in god or not believe in god; not even to suggest that there is something wrong with not believing in god. That in itself is some kind of humility, I suppose.”</p>

<p>History has suggested otherwise. If a person believed that the milky way is the only galaxy in the universe (there are currently 100 billion) and that the earth is the center of the milky way, then scientists would would try to persuade them otherwise. That is essentially what atheists attempt to do.</p>

<p>“What?s more, I do not ever recall anyone, in the 3 years I have been on this forum, telling atheists that they are wrong not to believe in god; it always comes the other way around: people of faith are deluded, wrong, evil, abusive, and the newest wrinkle, are suspect parents.”</p>

<p>So the bombings of abortion clinics, the grave disrespect launched by people like Phelps and Oreilly, the intolerance for atheists, and the attempt to ban evolution at schools are all just figments of our imagination (of course we can also delve into the inquisition and so on and so on)?</p>

<p>“As per usual, the tenor of this thread has become nothing more or less than an attack on the individual beliefs of those that believe in any and all forms of divinity”</p>

<p>I have adressed individual beliefs and their adverse affects, for valid reasons, but I have also addressed the illogic invovled with believing in god, which you have yet to refute.</p>

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<p>The ideologue always puts ideas before people; too often, the evangelical (of any stripe) cannot see through the steam coming from their own ears and nostrils, the blood in their own eyes. Their fear and anger blind them to the reality of real lives lived by real people in a real world.</p>

<p>Do they not have mirrors at dartmouth?</p>

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<p>Whether directed at gay couples or Christian couples, intolerance is intolerance; whether it is directed at suppressing child rearing in gay couples, straight couples or Christian couples, it all still applies. There are no exemptions.</p>

<p>When an ideal breeds intolerance it is morally ethical to be intolerant of that ideal. I’m intolerant of Nazism because it fosters nonthinking, hatred, and blind faith much like religion.</p>

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<p>Do you also acknowledge that there are many believers, of all faiths, who are not intolerant fundamentalists? Much wrong has been done in the name of religion, but so has much good. And of course believing in God isn’t logical, in the scientific sense: that’s why it requires faith. Love isn’t logical either, but I wouldn’t like a world without it.</p>

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<p>You can’t even argue for your own cause.</p>

<p>I’ll give you a few pointers:</p>

<p>According to our laws of causastion, cause occurs before effect, so if the big bang was the actuation of the universe, what was the cause of the big bang?</p>

<p>0 * M = infinity</p>

<p>(a + b^n)/n=x</p>

<p>and so on and so on…</p>

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<p>Sorry I don’t have the debating skills needed to participate in the discussion in this thread, but I would like to ask: Isn’t it an incredible coincidence that almost all people hold the religion (and in many cases, even the sect) that they were born into as the correct belief - across all religions.</p>

<p>I have no doubt at all that 99.9% of the most faithful Christians would be just as firm in their beliefs in the Koran and Allah had they been born in the Middle East into an Islamic society. And, just to fair, vice versa.</p>

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<p>Much wrong has been done in the name of religion, but so has much good. </p>

<p>What were the good parts?</p>

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<p>“Do you also acknowledge that there are many believers, of all faiths, who are not intolerant fundamentalists?”</p>

<p>Moderation breeds fundamentalism; it is a vacum of power. It is also not a matter of whether they do good in god’s name, it is a matter of whether god exists.</p>

<p>“Much wrong has been done in the name of religion, but so has much good.” </p>

<p>The wrong outweighs the good. </p>

<p>“And of course believing in God isn’t logical, in the scientific sense: that’s why it requires faith.”</p>

<p>You could say the same of the celestial teapot or the spaghetti monster.</p>

<p>“Love isn’t logical either, but I wouldn’t like a world without it.”</p>

<p>Actually, love is logical; it is chemical. I understand the poetic nature you were attempting to allude to though.</p>

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<p>qwilde - The one thing I do know is the “cause” of the big bang! God lit the fuse and the rest is History!</p>

<p>Actually, it turns out the whether we see expansion of the universe or a collapse of the universe depends on the direction of time’s arrow. Physics postulates that within the Schwartzchild Radius of a Black Hole, the arrow of time is reversed. Within a black hole, the universe is expanding. Thus, it is easy to theorize that our universe - and it’s expansion from the big bang - can be mathematically shown to be a collapse of another universe.</p>

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<p>digmedia:</p>

<p>Good point. I think that was the point of the neo-atheists. Rather than perpetuate the same beliefs, it might be better to allow each child to grow up and look at philosophies and religions with as open a mind as possible. I wonder about the outcome if that were possible. Would the old religions die out, would we become agnostics and atheists or would we just invent some new religions more appropriate to the current world?</p>

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<p>“I have no doubt at all that 99.9% of the most faithful Christians would be just as firm in their beliefs in the Koran and Allah had they been born in the Middle East into an Islamic society. And, just to fair, vice versa.”</p>

<p>Very astute observation. This is actually what first lead me towards pantheism. I refer to it as “the divine point of origin”.</p>

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<p>Of course they do, I am a woman–I could live with no less.</p>

<p>But to the point:</p>

<p>As for me, belief in god, as any other belief, is something you either have or you do not. You cannot make yourself believe what you find to be false. </p>

<p>Try it.</p>

<p>I have no desire for anyone to believe in god, or not believe in god: I do believe. That’s it.</p>

<p>I have never argued otherwise. I do not claim that it is irrational to disbelieve what I believe. To me that would boarder on insanity and megalomania. </p>

<p>Obviously, if I believe something I believe it to be true, but this is where I will have to part ways with the my fellow posters (Qwidle, CGM et al):</p>

<p>I am not so full of myself as to believe it must be true for everybody else simply because I believe it is true for me, or true in general. I am not quite so full of myself.</p>

<p>Others take a different approach.</p>

<p>As to Digmedia’s point,</p>

<p>What difference does this make? So people from all over the world believe differently. This is news? </p>

<p>Does the same apply to all beliefs: feminism, capitalism, freedom of speech? Would you be against these as well if you were from a different culture that didn’t value them as you do? How about atheism?
Perhaps so, wouldn’t you think?</p>

<p>So, should we not believe in equal rights because if we were born somewhere else we would likely not? Or should we see equal rights as relative to the neighborhood we bought into?</p>

<p>Treading on thin ice there DM, I’d say.</p>

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<p>I was raised as a Jewish atheist. I’m now a Christian. So anything is possible. :)</p>

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<p>I was raised with no religion, as well.</p>

<p>that’s 2 of us.</p>

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<p>“Actually, it turns out the whether we see expansion of the universe or a collapse of the universe depends on the direction of time’s arrow. Physics postulates that within the Schwartzchild Radius of a Black Hole, the arrow of time is reversed. Within a black hole, the universe is expanding. Thus, it is easy to theorize that our universe - and it’s expansion from the big bang - can be mathematically shown to be a collapse of another universe.”</p>

<p>There are three possibilites: the universe is decreasing, the universe is expanding, or the universe is static. Quantum mechancis indicates that the universe is likely increasing. Now, the argument against causation, that is something had to start the big bang, is that time is an invariable factor of cause and affect. Before the big bang there was no time, or any other dimensions for that matter, and therefore the causation that we now know and have come to love becomes distorted and convuluted. One may argue that god was above all the dimensions when creating the universe, so in fact god would be omnipotent, but then the same would have to apply now and there are to many paradoxes invovled so god can be removed from the equation with Occam’s Razor. There have been many postulations regarding black holes. Chiefly, that an infinite continuum of parallel universes exists. Also, that through a black hole the power of infinite energy can be harnessed, which would allow us to journey at the speed of light (everyone’s favorite equation E=MC^2). Scientisits have also asserted that there might quite possible be white holes on the other side, which would allow us to transport through time (seems a little farfetched).</p>

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<p>qwilde, there you go again, trying to apply some sort of logic and analysis to religious beliefs. You should read FS’s post again. FS believes what she believes and that is it, end of discussion, no facts needed, no observations or logic needed - except for what helps to confirm the original beliefs.</p>

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<p>“I was raised as a Jewish atheist. I’m now a Christian. So anything is possible.”</p>

<p>We live in a christian society.</p>

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<p>“qwilde, there you go again, trying to apply some sort of logic an analysis to religious beliefs. You should read FS’s post again. FS believes what she believes and that is it, end of discussion, no facts needed, no observations or logic needed - except for what helps to confirm the original beliefs.”</p>

<p>FS just believes in god. When most people believe in god, they mean they are anti-gay, anti-other religion, anti-sex, anti-everything but tolerance. That is what I will argue and stand up against…I think god will eventually be removed from the picture when we, the human race, acquire more and more knowledge in the future. </p>

<p>edit: In the future the human race would be so advanced that we would probably revere them as gods, much like a caveman would us.</p>

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<p>

This is of course a lie. Straight and simple and oh so very unscientific.</p>

<p>

Feel free: Just call it what it is and not resort to bigoted short hand, or the bigoted book of quotations.</p>

<p>It’s actually quite simple.</p>