<p>
</p>
<p>Perhaps so, but I grew up on the upper west side of Manhattan, which isn’t exactly representative of American society as a whole.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>And you have every right to do so, when that’s what the people you’re arguing against are like. But you seem not to want to acknowledge that there are many of us who don’t think that way.</p>
<p>“This is of course a lie. Straight and simple and oh so very unscientific.”</p>
<p>Apparently, you have not read the bible. I have previously included instances of genocide, gang rape, slaughter, and homophobia. If a large percentage of Americans take the bible to be literal, then my assertion is is oh so very scientific. Unless, you were arguing that you believe in the aforementioned.</p>
<p>“But you seem not to want to acknowledge that there are many of us who don’t think that way.”</p>
<p>How can you believe in your religion then? You would be utterly disregarding the holy scripture, which actually states that working on the Sabbath is punishable by death. You could only possibly believe in god and not the trivialities associated with religion.</p>
<p>first assertion:
</p>
<p>revised:
…fast and loose and still wrong.</p>
<p>…I beleive I see a trend here.</p>
<p>Links:</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43957[/url]”>http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43957</a></p>
<p><a href=“http://www.washtimes.com/national/20040216-113955-2061r.htm[/url]”>http://www.washtimes.com/national/20040216-113955-2061r.htm</a></p>
<p>If they took the bible literally and believed in god’s divinity, then they would have to follow god’s commands and wishes; otherwise; they would be defying their own god. If my aunt had a ***** then she wouldn’t be my aunt to begin with.</p>
<p>EDIT: Hey, that is a scientific term *****.</p>
<p>As Ani Di Franco once sang,</p>
<p>“everyone is a <em>little</em> Napoleon”</p>
<p>[edited for content]</p>
<p>Yeah, “Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet”</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I’m not an inerrantist. And if you want to take up the issue of Israelite ceremonial law and why some of it is no longer applicable today, you’d do better to discuss it with Orthodox Jews, since they’re required to keep the 613 mitzvot of the Old Testament, with modifications.</p>
<p>
Tolerance, in my world, includes treating a transgender person according to their image of themselves…not just forcing them into the image of the body they were born with.</p>
<p>…seems like there are real issues of <em>intolerance</em> here. </p>
<p>Better check yourself.</p>
<p>“Tolerance, in my world, includes treating a transgender person according to their image of themselves…not just forcing them into the image of the body they were born with.”</p>
<p>You put words in my mouth because you resentfully couldn’t refute my other points. I have no problem with transgenders (generally religious people do). I was stating that if my aunt had a ***** to begin with then she wouldn’t be my aunt she would be my uncle.</p>
<p>“I’m not an inerrantist. And if you want to take up the issue of Israelite ceremonial law and why some of it is no longer applicable today, you’d do better to discuss it with Orthodox Jews, since they’re required to keep the 613 mitzvot of the Old Testament, with modifications.”</p>
<p>I was proving my point about how ridiculous the bible is, old testament and new (and yet it is still taken literally). So you must just pick and chose which parts of the bible to believe…again how convenient.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I’m sorry that you only know intolerant religious people. Where do you live, that this is the case? I’m in a suburban neighborhood with people of many faiths and no faith at all, gay people, people of many races, etc. Everyone gets along very well. We talk about our various churches, synagogues, secular get-togethers, etc. with none of the rancor you seem to have.</p>
<p>I’m a high schooler and yet I see the ridiculousness of the bible and yet you are supposed to be logical adults and you still believe in it literally…how the world has changed.</p>
<p>“I’m sorry that you only know intolerant religious people. Where do you live, that this is the case? I’m in a suburban neighborhood with people of many faiths and no faith at all, gay people, people of many races, etc. Everyone gets along very well. We talk about our various churches, synagogues, secular get-togethers, etc. with none of the rancor you seem to have.”</p>
<p>I’m European, so I have not really encounterd so much intolerance, at least not until lately. I’m currently living in North Carolina. One instance, just as a specific example, included a religious girl asserting “but Mexicans aren’t people” and the teacher nodded her head.</p>
<p>Sir,</p>
<p>If only you had an argument worth refuting. As it is, I will quote the OP:</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>It is simple regurgitation you offer. No more.
Hardly worth a sustained argument: In fact, you have invited no arguments, you have merely hectored and heckled. I offered no more than my own view of my belief, and no more. Heckle at will.</p>
<p>Beyond that, I say, back to your freshman dormitory; wherein, such obvious pontification may still be valued, appreciated and even encouraged. </p>
<p>…there, you rule, dude.</p>
<p>What a coward’s way out…ignore my assertions by stating they are merely trite? How mature of you? The fact of the matter is even if they are trite you still have no argument against them.</p>
<p>If I remember rightly you argued that I was wrong when stating most Americans follow the bible literally. Reflects more on you than me.</p>
<p>Regarding just the bible itself and its backwardness:</p>
<p>What about Aaron (Exodus 32:1); what about the Midianites (Numbers 31: 18); what about Leviticus 20; what about (Exodus 34:13-17); what about the Levite priest (Judges 19:23-24)? Do these incidences not insight blind faith?</p>
<p>This is what blind faith has led to:</p>
<p>"Already in the 4th and 5th centuries synagogues were burned by Christians. Number of Jews slain unknown.
In the middle of the fourth century the first synagogue was destroyed on command of bishop Innocentius of Dertona in Northern Italy. The first synagogue known to have been burned down was near the river Euphrat, on command of the bishop of Kallinikon in the year 388. [DA450]
17. Council of Toledo 694: Jews were enslaved, their property confiscated, and their children forcibly baptized. [DA454]
The Bishop of Limoges (France) in 1010 had the cities’ Jews, who would not convert to Christianity, expelled or killed. [DA453]
First Crusade: Thousands of Jews slaughtered 1096, maybe 12.000 total. Places: Worms 5/18/1096, Mainz 5/27/1096 (1100 persons), Cologne, Neuss, Altenahr, Wevelinghoven, Xanten, Moers, Dortmund, Kerpen, Trier, Metz, Regensburg, Prag and others (All locations Germany except Metz/France, Prag/Czech) [EJ]
Second Crusade: 1147. Several hundred Jews were slain in Ham, Sully, Carentan, and Rameru (all locations in France). [WW57]
Third Crusade: English Jewish communities sacked 1189/90. [DO40]
Fulda/Germany 1235: 34 Jewish men and women slain. [DO41]
1257, 1267: Jewish communities of London, Canterbury, Northampton, Lincoln, Cambridge, and others exterminated. [DO41]
1290 in Bohemian (Poland) allegedly 10,000 Jews killed. [DO41]
1337 Starting in Deggendorf/Germany a Jew-killing craze reaches 51 towns in Bavaria, Austria, Poland. [DO41]
1348 All Jews of Basel/Switzerland and Strasbourg/France (two thousand) burned. [DO41]
1349 In more than 350 towns in Germany all Jews murdered, mostly burned alive (in this one year more Jews were killed than Christians in 200 years of ancient Roman persecution of Christians). [DO42]
1389 In Prag 3,000 Jews were slaughtered. [DO42]
1391 Seville’s Jews killed (Archbishop Martinez leading). 4,000 were slain, 25,000 sold as slaves. [DA454] Their identification was made easy by the brightly colored “badges of shame” that all jews above the age of ten had been forced to wear.
1492: In the year Columbus set sail to conquer a New World, more than 150,000 Jews were expelled from Spain, many died on their way: 6/30/1492. [MM470-476]
1648 Chmielnitzki massacres: In Poland about 200,000 Jews were slain. [DO43]</p>
<p>15th century: Crusades against Hussites, thousands slain. [DO30]
1538 pope Paul III declared Crusade against apostate England and all English as slaves of Church (fortunately had not power to go into action). [DO31]
1568 Spanish Inquisition Tribunal ordered extermination of 3 million rebels in (then Spanish) Netherlands. Thousands were actually slain. [DO31]
1572 In France about 20,000 Huguenots were killed on command of pope Pius V. Until 17th century 200,000 flee. [DO31]
17th century: Catholics slay Gaspard de Coligny, a Protestant leader. After murdering him, the Catholic mob mutilated his body, “cutting off his head, his hands, and his genitals… and then dumped him into the river […but] then, deciding that it was not worthy of being food for the fish, they hauled it out again [… and] dragged what was left … to the gallows of Montfaulcon, ‘to be meat and carrion for maggots and crows’.” [SH191]
17th century: Catholics sack the city of Magdeburg/Germany: roughly 30,000 Protestants were slain. “In a single church fifty women were found beheaded,” reported poet Friedrich Schiller, “and infants still sucking the breasts of their lifeless mothers.” [SH191]
17th century 30 years’ war (Catholic vs. Protestant): at least 40% of population decimated, mostly in Germany. [DO31-32] </p>
<p>Already in 385 C.E. the first Christians, the Spanish Priscillianus and six followers, were beheaded for heresy in Trier/Germany [DO26]
Manichaean heresy: a crypto-Christian sect decent enough to practice birth control (and thus not as irresponsible as faithful Catholics) was exterminated in huge campaigns all over the Roman empire between 372 C.E. and 444 C.E. Numerous thousands of victims. [NC]
Albigensians: the first Crusade intended to slay other Christians. [DO29]
The Albigensians (cathars = Christians allegedly that have all rarely sucked) viewed themselves as good Christians, but would not accept roman Catholic rule, and taxes, and prohibition of birth control. [NC]
Begin of violence: on command of pope Innocent III (greatest single pre-nazi mass murderer) in 1209. Bezirs (today France) 7/22/1209 destroyed, all the inhabitants were slaughtered. Victims (including Catholics refusing to turn over their heretic neighbours and friends) 20,000-70,000. [WW179-181]
Carcassonne 8/15/1209, thousands slain. Other cities followed. [WW181]
subsequent 20 years of war until nearly all Cathars (probably half the population of the Languedoc, today southern France) were exterminated. [WW183]
After the war ended (1229) the Inquisition was founded 1232 to search and destroy surviving/hiding heretics. Last Cathars burned at the stake 1324. [WW183]
Estimated one million victims (cathar heresy alone), [WW183]
Other heresies: Waldensians, Paulikians, Runcarians, Josephites, and many others. Most of these sects exterminated, (I believe some Waldensians live today, yet they had to endure 600 years of persecution) I estimate at least hundred thousand victims (including the Spanish inquisition but excluding victims in the New World).
Spanish Inquisitor Torquemada alone allegedly responsible for 10,220 burnings. [DO28]
John Huss, a critic of papal infallibility and indulgences, was burned at the stake in 1415. [LI475-522]
University professor B.Hubmaier burned at the stake 1538 in Vienna. [DO59]
Giordano Bruno, Dominican monk, after having been incarcerated for seven years, was burned at the stake for heresy on the Campo dei Fiori (Rome) on 2/17/1600. </p>
<p>First Crusade: 1095 on command of pope Urban II. [WW11-41]
Semlin/Hungary 6/24/96 thousands slain. Wieselburg/Hungary 6/12/96 thousands. [WW23]
9/9/96-9/26/96 Nikaia, Xerigordon (then turkish), thousands respectively. [WW25-27]
Until Jan 1098 a total of 40 capital cities and 200 castles conquered (number of slain unknown) [WW30]
after 6/3/98 Antiochia (then turkish) conquered, between 10,000 and 60,000 slain. 6/28/98 100,000 Turks (incl. women & children) killed. [WW32-35]
Here the Christians “did no other harm to the women found in [the enemy’s] tents - save that they ran their lances through their bellies,” according to Christian chronicler Fulcher of Chartres. [EC60]
Marra (Maraat an-numan) 12/11/98 thousands killed. Because of the subsequent famine “the already stinking corpses of the enemies were eaten by the Christians” said chronicler Albert Aquensis. [WW36]
Jerusalem conquered 7/15/1099 more than 60,000 victims (jewish, muslim, men, women, children). <a href=“In%20the%20words%20of%20one%20witness:” title=“there [in front of Solomon’s temple] was such a carnage that our people were wading ankle-deep in the blood of our foes”, and after that “happily and crying for joy our people marched to our Saviour’s tomb, to honour it and to pay off our debt of gratitude”>WW37-40</a>
The Archbishop of Tyre, eye-witness, wrote: “It was impossible to look upon the vast numbers of the slain without horror; everywhere lay fragments of human bodies, and the very ground was covered with the blood of the slain. It was not alone the spectacle of headless bodies and mutilated limbs strewn in all directions that roused the horror of all who looked upon them. Still more dreadful was it to gaze upon the victors themselves, dripping with blood from head to foot, an ominous sight which brought terror to all who met them. It is reported that within the Temple enclosure alone about ten thousand infidels perished.” [TG79]
Christian chronicler Eckehard of Aura noted that “even the following summer in all of palestine the air was polluted by the stench of decomposition”. One million victims of the first crusade alone. [WW41]
Battle of Askalon, 8/12/1099. 200,000 heathens slaughtered “in the name of Our Lord Jesus Christ”. [WW45]
Fourth crusade: 4/12/1204 Constantinople sacked, number of victims unknown, numerous thousands, many of them Christian. [WW141-148]
Rest of Crusades in less detail: until the fall of Akkon 1291 probably 20 million victims (in the Holy land and Arab/Turkish areas alone). [WW224] </p>
<p>Emperor Karl (Charlemagne) in 782 had 4500 Saxons, unwilling to convert to Christianity, beheaded. [DO30]
Peasants of Steding (Germany) unwilling to pay suffocating church taxes: between 5,000 and 11,000 men, women and children slain 5/27/1234 near Altenesch/Germany. [WW223]
Battle of Belgrad 1456: 80,000 Turks slaughtered. [DO235]
15th century Poland: 1019 churches and 17987 villages plundered by Knights of the Order. Victims unknown. [DO30]
16th and 17th century Ireland. English troops “pacified and civilized” Ireland, where only Gaelic “wild Irish”, “unreasonable beasts lived without any knowledge of God or good manners, in common of their goods, cattle, women, children and every other thing.” One of the more successful soldiers, a certain Humphrey Gilbert, half-brother of Sir Walter Raleigh, ordered that “the heddes of all those (of what sort soever thei were) which were killed in the daie, should be cutte off from their bodies… and should bee laied on the ground by eche side of the waie”, which effort to civilize the Irish indeed caused “greate terrour to the people when thei sawe the heddes of their dedde fathers, brothers, children, kinsfolke, and freinds on the grounde”.
Tens of thousands of Gaelic Irish fell victim to the carnage. [SH99, 225] </p>
<p>As soon as Christianity was legal (315), more and more pagan temples were destroyed by Christian mob. Pagan priests were killed.
Between 315 and 6th century thousands of pagan believers were slain.
Examples of destroyed Temples: the Sanctuary of Aesculap in Aegaea, the Temple of Aphrodite in Golgatha, Aphaka in Lebanon, the Heliopolis.
Christian priests such as Mark of Arethusa or Cyrill of Heliopolis were famous as “temple destroyer.” [DA468]
Pagan services became punishable by death in 356. [DA468]
Christian Emperor Theodosius (408-450) even had children executed, because they had been playing with remains of pagan statues. [DA469]
According to Christian chroniclers he “followed meticulously all Christian teachings…”
In 6th century pagans were declared void of all rights.
In the early fourth century the philosopher Sopatros was executed on demand of Christian authorities. [DA466]
The world famous female philosopher Hypatia of Alexandria was torn to pieces with glass fragments by a hysterical Christian mob led by a Christian minister named Peter, in a church, in 415.
[DO19-25] </p>
<p>Beginning with Columbus (a former slave trader and would-be Holy Crusader) the conquest of the New World began, as usual understood as a means to propagate Christianity.
Within hours of landfall on the first inhabited island he encountered in the Caribbean, Columbus seized and carried off six native people who, he said, “ought to be good servants … [and] would easily be made Christians, because it seemed to me that they belonged to no religion.” [SH200]
While Columbus described the Indians as “idolators” and “slaves, as many as [the Crown] shall order,” his pal Michele de Cuneo, Italian nobleman, referred to the natives as “beasts” because “they eat when they are hungry,” and made love “openly whenever they feel like it.” [SH204-205]
On every island he set foot on, Columbus planted a cross, “making the declarations that are required” - the requerimiento - to claim the ownership for his Catholic patrons in Spain. And “nobody objected.” If the Indians refused or delayed their acceptance (or understanding), the requerimiento continued:
I certify to you that, with the help of God, we shall powerfully enter in your country and shall make war against you … and shall subject you to the yoke and obedience of the Church … and shall do you all mischief that we can, as to vassals who do not obey and refuse to receive their lord and resist and contradict him." [SH66] </p>
<p>Likewise in the words of John Winthrop, first governor of Massachusetts Bay Colony: “justifieinge the undertakeres of the intended Plantation in New England … to carry the Gospell into those parts of the world, … and to raise a Bulworke against the kingdome of the Ante-Christ.” [SH235]
In average two thirds of the native population were killed by colonist-imported smallpox before violence began. This was a great sign of “the marvelous goodness and providence of God” to the Christians of course, e.g. the Governor of the Massachusetts Bay Colony wrote in 1634, as “for the natives, they are near all dead of the smallpox, so as the Lord hath cleared our title to what we possess.” [SH109,238]
On Hispaniola alone, on Columbus visits, the native population (Arawak), a rather harmless and happy people living on an island of abundant natural resources, a literal paradise, soon mourned 50,000 dead. [SH204]
The surviving Indians fell victim to rape, murder, enslavement and spanish raids.
As one of the culprits wrote: “So many Indians died that they could not be counted, all through the land the Indians lay dead everywhere. The stench was very great and pestiferous.” [SH69]
The indian chief Hatuey fled with his people but was captured and burned alive. As “they were tying him to the stake a Franciscan friar urged him to take Jesus to his heart so that his soul might go to heaven, rather than descend into hell. Hatuey replied that if heaven was where the Christians went, he would rather go to hell.” [SH70]
What happened to his people was described by an eyewitness:
“The Spaniards found pleasure in inventing all kinds of odd cruelties … They built a long gibbet, long enough for the toes to touch the ground to prevent strangling, and hanged thirteen [natives] at a time in honor of Christ Our Saviour and the twelve Apostles… then, straw was wrapped around their torn bodies and they were burned alive.” [SH72]
Or, on another occasion:
“The Spaniards cut off the arm of one, the leg or hip of another, and from some their heads at one stroke, like butchers cutting up beef and mutton for market. Six hundred, including the cacique, were thus slain like brute beasts…Vasco [de Balboa] ordered forty of them to be torn to pieces by dogs.” [SH83]
The “island’s population of about eight million people at the time of Columbus’s arrival in 1492 already had declined by a third to a half before the year 1496 was out.” Eventually all the island’s natives were exterminated, so the Spaniards were “forced” to import slaves from other caribbean islands, who soon suffered the same fate. Thus “the Caribbean’s millions of native people [were] thereby effectively liquidated in barely a quarter of a century”. [SH72-73] “In less than the normal lifetime of a single human being, an entire culture of millions of people, thousands of years resident in their homeland, had been exterminated.” [SH75]
“And then the Spanish turned their attention to the mainland of Mexico and Central America. The slaughter had barely begun. The exquisite city of Tenochtitln [Mexico city] was next.” [SH75]
Cortez, Pizarro, De Soto and hundreds of other spanish conquistadors likewise sacked southern and mesoamerican civilizations in the name of Christ (De Soto also sacked Florida).
“When the 16th century ended, some 200,000 Spaniards had moved to the Americas. By that time probably more than 60,000,000 natives were dead.” [SH95] </p>
<p>Catholic extermination camps
Surpisingly few know that Nazi extermination camps in World War II were by no means the only ones in Europe at the time. In the years 1942-1943 also in Croatia existed numerous extermination camps, run by Catholic Ustasha under their dictator Ante Paveli, a practising Catholic and regular visitor to the then pope. There were even concentration camps exclusively for children!
In these camps - the most notorious was Jasenovac, headed by a Franciscan friar - orthodox-Christian serbians (and a substantial number of Jews) were murdered. Like the Nazis the Catholic Ustasha burned their victims in kilns, alive (the Nazis were decent enough to have their victims gassed first). But most of the victims were simply stabbed, slain or shot to death, the number of them being estimated between 300,000 and 600,000, in a rather tiny country. Many of the killers were Franciscan friars. The atrocities were appalling enough to induce bystanders of the Nazi “Sicherheitsdient der SS”, watching, to complain about them to Hitler (who did not listen). The pope knew about these events and did nothing to prevent them. [MV] "</p>
<p>Fred Phelps</p>
<p>FS just believes in god. When most people believe in god, they mean they are anti-gay, anti-other religion, anti-sex, anti-everything but tolerance. That is what I will argue and stand up against…I think god will eventually be removed from the picture when we, the human race, acquire more and more knowledge in the future.</p>
<p>“This is of course a lie. Straight and simple and oh so very unscientific.” (You of course trapped in yet another false statement and then you make no amends to it.)</p>
<p>Apparently, you have not read the bible. I have previously included instances of genocide, gang rape, slaughter, and homophobia. If a large percentage of Americans take the bible to be literal, then my assertion is is oh so very scientific. Unless, you were arguing that you believe in the aforementioned</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43957[/url]”>http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43957</a></p>
<p><a href=“http://www.washtimes.com/national/20...3955-2061r.htm[/url]”>http://www.washtimes.com/national/20...3955-2061r.htm</a></p>
<p>?</p>
<p>Previous Points (barely scratches the surface):</p>
<p>David Hume:
“If the evil in the world is intended by god he is not good. If it violates his intentions he is not almighty. God can’t be both almighty and good. There are many objections to this, but none that holds since god is ultimately responsible for the existence of evil. Besides, if only god can create he must have created evil. If somebody else (the devil) created evil, how can one know that god, and not Satan created the universe?”</p>
<p>Q:
You can also logically disprove god and most fallacies of the bible.</p>
<p>God for instance must be all-knowing and all powerful. God must be able to see everything that ever has and ever will be. Ultimately if god is omniscient then god is chained by fate and de facto is not all powerful. Can god create a rock that he cannot lift? If not god is not all powerful. If god can than god is not all powerful? Can God create a fence that god cannot jump over? You know how it goes. </p>
<p>Also, god is not an explanation, but merely a non-explanation. Justifying the unknown by using god answers how and not why. It raises more questions than it answers. If god created this unbelievably intricate universe, than god it must be even more intricate. Ultimately, god can be removed from the equation with Occam’s Razor.</p>
<p>If I believe that pigs can fly, is that all it requires for them to actually fly (from a non solipsist point of view)? People argue that god is so great that god cannot be understood through our logic. Well then I urge you to unlearn everything that you have so far. Unlearn what science has taught you, what math has taught, what even literature has taught you-all of which are founded in rationale and logic. Because if God is not worthy of our logic, then what is?</p>
<p>If god created the universe, who created god? If god just is, why can’t the universe just be?</p>
<p>Prayer is pointless because god is all knowing. God can see everything that ever has and ever will happen. Subsequently, god would have foreseen what you prayed for and changed the universe accordingly before creating it.</p>