<p>it is interesting to read about CS Lewis and his supposed atheism…</p>
<p>and well, the 10,000 was a number I had to guess at, I thought it was a younger but that just seemed TOO implausible
and qwilde, nice work</p>
<p>check out some humanist websites…many humanists are atheist and the idea to to make our time here on earth the best we can, helping others, learning science etc</p>
<p>it can be grounding to read others that think along the same path</p>
<p>here are some links</p>
<p>and for others, be daring and take the plunge, check out that which disagrees with you, qwilde and I do, it seems, all the time</p>
<p>“and if you are to say that i am naive about this issue, go and read the bible and see how much of it makes sense if you take all things literally”</p>
<p>I don’t take the bible as anything other than fiction.</p>
<p>i dont’ think much in the bible is literal, of course not, BUT enough do, and there in lies the rub</p>
<p>and they are very vocal, and when they throw around "beliefs’ and “religion” how is one to argue</p>
<p>they believe the world is less than ten thousand years old cause the bible tells them so, so do we argue with that because, the “believe” and “have faith” </p>
<p>there in lies the rub, at what point are questions not to be asked about faith…you yourself are questioning others faith and their lack of being informed, because science disproves their faith…and you say many Christians are misinformed, ie with regard to the age of the earth…yes, that is very true…BUT do Christians have the right to judge other Christians on whose faith is more knowledgeable, because after all, faith is faith, belief is belief…</p>
<p>my point is that even Christians question the faiths and beliefs of each other all the time, and yet somehow they believe no one else should, even though those questioning have often done more reading and research and discussing than the “believers”</p>
<p>I have read the bible several times, and many Christians have barely gotten through it once</p>
<p>Issac Asimov has a wonderful book about the bible, I suggest reading it</p>
<p>Thanks, for the links. I’ve heard of humanism, but I thought it was religiously affiliated. It seems like the organization/movement is somewhat of a philanthropic zeitgeist pantheism.</p>
<p>it is not a religion but a philospophy…it can be grounding and reassuring to know that many good kind smart curious people have the same ideas you do and have asked the same questions, have the same concerns</p>
<p>You really have to take the Bible as much more than fiction; it is the source from which too many people derive their world view and use to justify their actions. One of the most interesting things I’ve done is to read parts of the Bible from a non-religious point of view. The book of Joshua, for example, is quite a detailed account of an ethnic cleansing as Joshua leads the Israelites into the Promised Land. It’s pure genocide, all done as part of God’s orders, adapting the strategems given by God. * “…And the walls came tumbling down.”*</p>
<p>But an example of the Christian interpretation of this is given in this sermon:</p>
<p>The lesson of Jericho? Trust God and his strange strategies (e.g., trumpets), to help you conquer your own Jerichos and to help lead you to victory in these struggles. </p>
<p>Think of the more recent genocidal episodes. What if in the future, these incidents were being interpreted as positive lessons for guiding lives?</p>
<p>*How beautiful your sandaled feet,
O prince’s daughter!
Your graceful legs are like jewels,
the work of a craftsman’s hands.</p>
<pre><code>Your navel is a rounded goblet
that never lacks blended wine.
Your waist is a mound of wheat
encircled by lilies.
</code></pre>
<p>Your breasts are like two fawns,
twins of a gazelle.</p>
<pre><code>Your neck is like an ivory tower.
Your eyes are the pools of Heshbon
by the gate of Bath Rabbim.
Your nose is like the tower of Lebanon
looking toward Damascus.
Your head crowns you like Mount Carmel.
Your hair is like royal tapestry;
the king is held captive by its tresses.
How beautiful you are and how pleasing,
O love, with your delights!
Your stature is like that of the palm,
and your breasts like clusters of fruit.
I said, “I will climb the palm tree;
I will take hold of its fruit.”
May your breasts be like the clusters of the vine,
the fragrance of your breath like apples,
and your mouth like the best wine.*
</code></pre>
<p>If the Religious Right-Thinkers of today were deciding canonical content, I know one book which would be left out.</p>
<p>The saganaki last night was one of the most sensual thing to ever pass my lips. It was my first time. Never did I think something that good existed. OMG! Maybe it <em>did</em> affect what I was reading last night. :)</p>
<p>“they believe the world is less than ten thousand years old cause the bible tells them so” CGM </p>
<p>The Bible does not say that the earth was created less than 10,000 years ago. A man counted up the people enumerated in “the begat’s” section of the Bible, and counted up the years he thought they lived, and assumed there were no generations in between. That’s like mentioning famous presidents, and listing Jefferson, Lincoln, and Roosevelt. Such a list does not imply that there were no presidents between these three - and it certainly does not imply there was a void of nothingness before Jefferson. </p>
<p>When we say fundamentalist Christians take the Bible literally, what some of us - note I say some of us - mean, is that that type of fundamentalist assumes the Bible is not only true, it is exhaustive. </p>
<p>Go to two historians, and ask what happened during Nixon’s Watergate hearings. They could each tell you true facts, but each might give you a different set of facts. I think this is where the fundamentalist approach goes wrong: they believe in the accuracy of certain words in the Bible, but do not listen to the paragraphs. God gave us the Bible as a roadmap and instruction manual, not a science textbook. I do not believe God is trying to teach us biology - he is trying to teach us good from evil. </p>
<p>Those Bible readers read and dwell on every single word, but do not understand the text at all. C.S. Lewis cautioned us not to let the squeaking of the shoes of the man in the next pew, keep us from listening to God, and I think that’s pretty good advice.</p>
<p>I’d also read C.S. Lewis’s Surprised by Joy, which deals specifically with his conversion. It’s a beautiful book, even if it didn’t make me a Christian. :)</p>
<p>I agree. The Bible is meant to be a history of God’s relationship with Man. Fundamentalists do not discount the theory of disease propagation by germs because germs are not mentioned in the Bible… Although I don’t know why that same reasoning does not extend to the creation of the universe and evolution as the “way” in which man is created.</p>
<p>I look at “literal-ness” this way: When your small child asks where she came from, there is no way to convey the complexity of how she was conceived and born. So you tell the truth - in a simplistic way. You do not tell a lie (“the stork brought you”) but you convey the truth as she can understand it (“Mommy and Daddy fell in love, got married, and you grew in Mommy and were born.”).</p>
<p>So how much wider is the gulf between the mind of man and the mind of God than the gulf between an adult mind and a child’s? It’s actually kind of blasphemous to proclaim that there can be no more complexity that a single man can comprehend - apart from the words used to convey the story.</p>
<p>One can believe in the truth of Scripture and actually glorify God by accepting that the complexity of the “mechanics” are beyond man’s comprehension. And as science discovers some small insight on the How of creation and evolution, why is that rejected as false?</p>
<p>As Christianity was created (basic tenets agreed upon in 325 AD - other views were declared heretical and crushed out like stepping on small fires) and promulgated (in sometimes cruel and genocidal ways), many attributes of the religion were created to help more primitive people believe. It ends up as a non-monotheistic idea full of superstition and superstitious rites and miraculous events (The Madonna appeared on a piece of toast!!).</p>
<p>Christians no longer observe the Laws (it was easier to recruit new Christians if they didn’t have to lead such a strict life) nor keep the Sabbath (Saturday) nor even count days correctly (as in the words of Genesis: “And the evening and the morning were the first day.”). They give lip service to Jesus’s command; “Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven…” (Or, in in the Old Testament, from 82nd Psalm: “Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.”)</p>
<p>So it becomes understandable why people turn away from religion and especially from current fundamentalism.</p>
<p>After awhile I stopped reading and just scanned posts. No Bible quotes are valid if one does not consider that book in any of its many variations to be “the word of God”- remember history is written by the victors, the losing and extinct peoples may disagree with the Hebrew version of events… Who cares if the founding fathers were religious or not, they were a product of their times and we don’t need to agree with them. Some people seem to think that what went on in a small eastern part of this continent is sacred- consider the number of amendments and other changes that have occurred since a government was established. I notice it seems only believers in some form of Christianity are upset by atheism- they are the ones who also try to convert others and can’t tolerate other belief systems. I think Christ would be appalled by Christians. It is interesting to note the many ways man defines god- religion is a convenient way to control behavior and make a society run smoothly. Unfortunately for uniformity the United States is a conglomeration of people from many different societies, with everyone someone who, or whose ancestors, didn’t get along well for some reason or other in their society and left it (being captured and sold into slavery, economics, religious beliefs, etc…), we challenge the status quo. God worshippers (what kind of god needs, or even wants, worship? God must be created in man’s image, not the converse) need to step outside their box, see the other side of the coin, et al. Morals and ethics- intrinsic or extrinsic locus of control? Those who pick and choose a religion should wonder why it isn’t universal- and why an opposing religion can be just as sure their beliefs are the right ones.</p>
<p>If religious people wouldn’t insist they are right and others wrong and that their views should dominate society nonbelievers would ignore them. Keep in mind that if you have the right to try to teach me or my child your beliefs then I have the right to teach you and yours mine. If I am exposed to your religious practices then you should be exposed to mine. I like that the Wisconsin Capitol rotunda has a Christmas tree, other religions’ symbols and a sign saying there is no god in December. </p>
<p>So, anyone can quote Judeo-Christian-Muslim books, but they are not universally accepted in the world and hence of no value in proving points. I’m sure sociologists have many answers as to why people developed religions; I wish people could outgrow their need for the crutch of a religion, it seems as though most people have their beliefs because they were indoctrinated at a young, vulnerable age, or they found a way to deal with a misfortune- I can’t tolerate the inconsistencies/contradictions. I like the slogan circa late 1700’s- “Don’t Tread On Me”.</p>
<p>I’ve been reading this thread with great interest, and it is extremely thought-provoking. While the conundrum of “The Prime Mover” has always been problematic to me, I don’t think I’ll ever be able to buy into the concept that the inscrutable complexity, the incomprehensible symmetry of our vast universe just “happened”. Thank the Prime Mover(s) that I live in a country where I have the right to believe whatsoever I choose (or not!), and can even worship who/whatsoever I choose (or not!) in whatever context I choose, and that I can share my beliefs with my offspring and anyone else who consents to hear my POV (though I am more often than not likely to remain silent on the subject).</p>
<p>While most devotely religious people live in the most light bulb-fragile of glass houses, I think I understand some of why they may feel so threatened by Atheists, especially, the most vocal ones. They understand that the most proactive Atheists are, ironically enough, everybit as committed to their “religion” (and Atheism has all the ear-markings of a religion) as any adherent of a conventional fundamentalist sect. They understand that many active Atheists have an ulterior political and social agenda: Quite simply that of eventually irradicating religion from human society (for the sake of the “peace and stability of humanity”), thereby making it illegal to profess a belief in any god or gods, and making the religious indoctrination of children punishable by law.</p>
<p>I don’t buy that premise that atheists are a threat to religious freedoms. 60% of Americans consider religion to be a very important part of their lives. This is roughly twice the number found in England, France, Japan, and other “developed” countries. The percentage of atheists in the US is very small. About 10% of the population is in the category of atheists, agnostics, or those who just have no active religious affiliation, or just aren’t interested and don’t care. Threats to freedoms and threats to the separation of church and State do not come from a neglibile number of committed atheists. These threats come from religious groups who want to control the activities of others. The examples are pervasive.</p>
<p>Fundamentalists want to limit education of the sciences, Catholics are often not content to avoid abortion but want to prevent others from this practice, almost every community has some “blue” laws restricting alcohol sales and other activities on Sundays, local church leaders often illegally support political candidates, religious groups foster decency campaigns to restrict the use of four letter words and curtail sexual freedoms. The list is endless. The only activities we see from a small number of active atheists is in support of the separation of church and State. It is almost a joke that a handful of atheists have gotten some media attention by suggesting we stop indoctinating our children.</p>