<p>
</p>
<p>Nothing you’ve said here is part of my view at all. Perhaps if you were interested in an actual discussion, rather than in setting up straw men to knock down…</p>
<p>You are duplicitous. </p>
<p>“Through faith, we can receive God’s love and mercy.”</p>
<p>If there is a hell and you need to receive God’s love and mercy to escape it, which can only be obtained through faith, then one might suppose those who don’t have faith would be sent to hell. You may not have said that, but you implied it.</p>
<p>Firstly, you haven’t adressed the essence of my arguments and secondly you condescedingly asserted that I’m de facto not “interested” in a discussion, insinuating that I’m childish and my reasoning is illogical.</p>
<p>hh, ignore the questions raised…dude</p>
<p>and as for straw men, I have studied religion quite a bit, and it is almost impossible to have a rational discussion when talking about faith, as faith itself is not rational, how could it be? if it was rational, it would not require faith</p>
<p>so,say you DO believe in God and are paralized…is that mercy? when does Mercy and Grace take hold,when does it take affect? after death, because I know many people who have “faith” who are suffering</p>
<p>are you saying their faith isn’t strong enough</p>
<p>what about the faith of getting rich if you believe…read some sermons of paster out there with megachurces…its all about the $$</p>
<p>what is God’s “mercy” this is a serious question…I am not trying to be trite, but I really wonder what “mercy” means</p>
<p>“after death, because I know many people who have “faith” who are suffering
are you saying their faith isn’t strong enough”</p>
<p>Also, what about the millions of terminally sick who drag their feeble bodies across the world to Lourdes, France in the hope of a supposed miracle. Are they not good enough? Is their faith not strong enough?</p>
<p>Some jokes to lighten the mood:</p>
<p>A woman was at the beach with her children when her four-year-old son ran up to her, grabbed her hand, and led her to the shore, where a sea gull lay dead in the sand. </p>
<p>“Mommy, what happened to him?” the son asked.
“He died and went to heaven,” the mother replied.
Her son thought a moment and then said, “And God threw him back down?” </p>
<p>A Sunday school teacher asked the children just before she dismissed them to go to church, “And why is it necessary to be quiet in church?”<br>
Little Johnny jumped up and yelled, “Because people are sleeping!” </p>
<p>Top Ten Reasons Why Beer Is Better Than Jesus
10. No one will kill you for not drinking beer.
9. Beer doesn’t tell you how to have sex.
8. Beer has never caused a major war.
7. They don’t force beer on minors who can’t think for themselves.
6. When you have beer, you don’t knock on people’s doors trying to give it away.
5. Nobody’s ever been burned at the stake, hanged, or tortured to death over his brand of beer.
4. You don’t have to wait 2,000+ years for a second beer.
3. There are laws saying that beer labels can’t lie to you.
2. You can prove you have a beer.
- If you have devoted your life to beer, there are groups to help you stop.</p>
<p>Why God never received a PhD:</p>
<ol>
<li>He had only one major publication. </li>
<li>It was in Hebrew. </li>
<li>It had no references. </li>
<li>It wasn’t published in a refereed journal. </li>
<li>Some even doubt he wrote it by himself. </li>
<li>It may be true that he created the world, but what has he done since then? </li>
<li>His cooperative efforts have been quite limited. </li>
<li>The scientific community has had a hard time replicating his results. </li>
<li>He never applied to the ethics board for permission to use human subjects. </li>
<li>When one experiment went awry he tried to cover it by drowning his subjects. </li>
<li>When subjects didn’t behave as predicted, he deleted them from the sample. </li>
<li>He rarely came to class, just told students to read the book. </li>
<li>Some say he had his son teach the class. </li>
<li>He expelled his first two students for learning. </li>
<li>Although there were only 10 requirements, most of his students failed his tests. </li>
<li>His office hours were infrequent and usually held on a mountain top. </li>
<li>No record of working well with colleagues.</li>
</ol>
<p>A local priest and a pastor were fishing on the side of the road. They thoughtfully made a sign saying, “The End is Near! Turn yourself around now before it’s too late!” and showed it to each passing car. </p>
<p>One driver who drove by didn’t appreciate the sign and shouted at them, “Leave us alone, you religious nuts!” </p>
<p>All of a sudden they heard a big splash, looked at each other, and the priest said to the pastor, “You think maybe we should have just said ‘Bridge Out’ instead?” </p>
<p>You Know Your Church Is A Redneck Church If…</p>
<p>The finance committee refuses to provide funds for
the purchase of a chandelier because none of the
Members knows how to play one.</p>
<p>People ask (when they learn that Jesus fed the 5000)
whether the two fish were bass or catfish, and what
Bait was used to catch 'em.</p>
<p>When the pastor says, “I’d like to ask Bubba to help
take up the offering,” five guys and two women stand up.</p>
<p>Opening day of deer season is recognized as an
official church holiday.</p>
<p>A member of the church requests to be buried in his
4-wheel-drive truck because “It ain’t never been in a
hole it couldn’t get out of.”</p>
<p>The choir is known as the “OK Chorale.”
Boone’s Farm “Tickle Pink” is the favorite wine for communion.</p>
<p>In a congregation of 500 members, there are only
seven last names in the church directory.</p>
<p>Baptism is referred to as “branding”</p>
<p>There is a special fundraiser for a new church septic tank</p>
<p>Finding and returning lost sheep isn’t just a parable.</p>
<p>*High notes on the organ set the dogs on the floor to howling.</p>
<p>People think “rapture” is what you get when you lift
something too heavy.</p>
<p>The baptismal fount is a #2 galvanized washtub…</p>
<p>The choir robes were donated by and embroidered with
the logo from Billy Bob’s Barbecue.</p>
<p>The collection plates are really hubcaps from a '56 Chevy</p>
<p>but what does it do? putting faith and energy into a miracle? but if you put faith in God to make you well, are you saying God made you sick? is wellness only for the faithful, is that what you are saying? if you don’t get well, is it becuase you didn’t have enough faith, weren’t deserving? is that the message</p>
<p>I still wonder about mercy…</p>
<p>thanks for the jokes!!! needed them</p>
<p>Again, good points CGM.</p>
<p>Sorry, but I couldn’t resist. Just one more:</p>
<p>TOP TEN SIGNS YOU’RE A CHRISTIAN</p>
<p>10- You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of your god.</p>
<p>9- You feel insulted and “dehumanized” when scientists say that people evolved from lesser life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created from dirt</p>
<p>8- You laugh at polytheists, but you have no problem believing in a Trinity god</p>
<p>7- Your face turns purple when you hear of the “atrocities” attributed to Allah, but you don’t even flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered all the babies of Egypt in “Exodus” and ordered the elimination of entire ethnic groups in “Joshua” – including women, children, and trees!</p>
<p>6- You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and Greek claims about gods sleeping with women, but you have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who got killed, came back to life and then ascended into the sky.</p>
<p>5- You are willing to spend your life looking for little loop-holes in the scientifically established age of the Earth (4.55 billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by pre-historic tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing that the Earth is a couple of generations old.</p>
<p>4- You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs – though excluding those in all rival sects – will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet you consider your religion the most “tolerant” and “loving”.</p>
<p>3- While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot rolling around on the floor speaking in “tongues” may be all the evidence you need to prove Christianity.</p>
<p>2- You define 0.01% as a “high success rate” when it comes to answered prayers. You consider that to be evidence that prayer works. And you think that the remaining 99.99% FAILURE was simply the will of God.</p>
<p>1- You actually know a lot less than many Atheists and Agnostics do about the Bible, Christianity, and church history – but still call yourself a Christian</p>
<p>I always thought it was strange that Jesus’s crucifixion was such a big deal. It wasn’t like he killed himself with a rusty railroad spike to save us; he was sentenced to death by the Romans! And THEN he said “ah yes, I am dying for YOU”, even though there wasn’t really anything he could do about it. Kind of a cop out, if you ask me. </p>
<p>But then again, I only went to church a couple times as a kid, and I never caught on.</p>
<p>for those that want some indepth info on some of the founding fathers and some quotes:</p>
<p><a href=“Roy Rosenzweig Center for History and New Media – Democratizing history through digital media”>Roy Rosenzweig Center for History and New Media – Democratizing history through digital media;
<p>one of my faves:</p>
<p>The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history. Although the detail of the formation of the American governments is at present little known or regarded either in Europe or in America, it may hereafter become an object of curiosity. It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses.
– John Adams, “A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America” (1787-88), from Adrienne Koch, ed., The American Enlightenment: The Shaping of the American Experiment and a Free Society (1965) p. 258, quoted from Ed and Michael Buckner, “Quotations that Support the Separation of State and Church”</p>
<p>besides quotes, please show me th WRITINGS that show the founding fathers created a Christian nation…quotes at a funeral, or at a speech, or at a battle do not show the true intent of these men…their debates, their practices, their laws, the writings, etc show they wanted anything BUT a country founded around religious beliefs or principles</p>
<p>it is kind of fun to see an offhand remark, ie i am a “church going animal” by John Adams to somehow show he was a Christian </p>
<p>Well, not so much, but that quote has been used by many to make claims about the man that are basic opposition to most of his writings</p>
<p>as well, a book written by Washington as a youth is used to present him as a Evangelical for those that feel it is necesarry to blend church and state</p>
<p>His later works in no way matched that youthful prayer book </p>
<p>I could go on and on, but more and more, people analyzing the practices, the writings, putting quotes in context are seeing our founding fathers weren’t born agains, weren’t really practicing Christians, and in most cases feared a country that blend church and state</p>
<p>In regards to the founding fathers; I do believe most were desits. I do, however, assert they would be the champion athesits of our day. Also, I believe their support of christianity is misconstrued, much as Einstein’s belief in a personal god and in religion is.</p>
<p>His most famous quote, toted by religous believers who support science when it ostensibly suits them, “God does not play dice” , was actually a retort to the uncertainty based in quantum mechanic’s nature.</p>
<p>Other quotes:</p>
<p>“I don’t try to imagine a personal God; it suffices to stand in awe at the structure of the world, insofar as it allows our inadequate senses to appreciate it”</p>
<p>“I am a deeply religous nonbeliever. This is a somewhat new kind of religion”</p>
<p>“It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.”</p>
<p>“The idea of a personal God is quite alien to me and seems even naive.”</p>
<p>“I have never imputed to Nature a purpose or a goal, or anything that could be understood as anthropomorphic. What I see in Nature is a magnificient structure that we can comprehend only very imperfectly, and that must fill a thinking person with a feeling of humility. This is a genuinely religous feeling that has nothing to do wity mysticism”</p>
<p>“I believe in Spinoza’s God, who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in in a God who concerns himself with the fates and actions of human”</p>
<p>The word god is merely rhetorical, evinced through his evidently pantheistic beliefs.</p>
<p>I have not read all of the posts on this thread, but I have read enough to be disturbed about the number of attacks on religion and those who have strong religious beliefs. Arguments about what the founding fathers believed, or about the history of religion, or the arguments about the existence and nature of god are irrelevant. Religions are built on faith and not compelling, logical arguments. The specific stories, rites, and history that are a part of different religions are not important. Man’s faith and desire to believe are important. Clearly, religious beliefs have been apart of the development of civilization. Religion is part of the glue that holds us together. Without religion, we would have too much diversity of opinion and too many independent thinkers. We would have a tough time rooting out non-believers and non-comformists. I suspect we would even have a tough time waging war. If you are going to attack religion, you might as well attack nationalism. Having faith in your country, it’s leaders and actions, is not always logical, but it is certainly important to bind us together in concerted action. If you are going to attack organized religions, you might as well also denounce organized sports. It is not logical to root for the hometown team when the performers are paid, traded off, and recruited from all over the country or world. Millions do in fact get a lot of satisfaction in rooting for the “hometown” team. Except for third world soccer matches, this enthusiasm hardly ever results in violence. Just because religous beliefs are stronger and more likely to lead to conflicts, wars and exterminations is no reason to deny the reality of religion. It is obviously a part of man’s nature.</p>
<p>qwilde -</p>
<p>Thank you very much. Well said. My favorite is #8. Don’t forget the divinity of Mary Mother of God (and the belief in her immaculate conception) and the large number of Saints and others at “the right hand of God” running around heaven as if it were Mt. Olympus. Nor should you forget the “evil god,” Satan, who rules another Kingdom of the After Life. Monotheistic?</p>
<p>Hmmmm…without religion as our “glue”, we’d have “too many independent thinkers” and “tough time waging war”.</p>
<p>Who wants thinkers and peace anyway?
;)</p>
<p>Although it is undoubtedly dumb to say that a ‘deist’ is not a ‘theist’ (as has been implied and now corrected), it is no less dumb to say a ‘pantheist’ is not a ‘theist.’</p>
<p>Moreover, it would not be proper to call Einstein a ‘pantheist’, in the sense that Spinoza was a pantheist; Einstein’s intuition seems to me to be closer to Jewish and Sufi mysticism. That is to say, god was not present or contained in the universe, but rather the universe emanated from god without actually being the sum total of god or god as such. </p>
<p>In any case, God is the premise in: pantheist, deist, or theological mysticism. </p>
<p>Making the man a theist.</p>
<p>Very sloppy reasoning by the crowd of resentment</p>
<p>“I have not read all of the posts on this thread, but I have read enough to be disturbed about the number of attacks on religion and those who have strong religious beliefs.”</p>
<p>Who are we to question religion? We owe religion no respect. We should approach it like all matters in life with prudence and discern. Just because you believe in something does not necessarily make it true and we have every right to question you. Science is questioned. If your kids, or if you are my age, if you were taught in school that in order to reproduce you would have to have sex with a goat, I’m quite sure you would question the assertion. We are merely doing the same. And your beliefs seem as absurd as sleeping with a goat.</p>
<p>Douglas Adams once said:
“Religion…has certain ideas at the heart of it which we call sacred or holy or whatever. What it means is, ‘Here is an idea or notion that you’re not allowed to say anything bad about; you’re just not. Why not? - because you’re not!’ If somebody votes for a party that you don’t agree with, you’re free to argue about it as much as you like; everybody will have an argument but nobody will feel aggrieved by it. If somebody thinks taxes should go up or down you are free to have an argument about it. But on the other hand if somebody says ‘I musn’t move a light switch on a Saturday’, you say, ‘I respect that’. Why should it be that it’s perfectly legitimate to support the Labour party or the Conservative party, Republicans or Democrats, this model of economics versus that, Macintosh instead of Windows-but to have an opinion about how the universe began, about who created the universe…no, that’s holy?..We are used to not challenging religious ideas but it’s very interesting how much of a furore Richard creates when he does it! Everybody gets absolutely frantic about it because you are not allowed to say these things. Yet when you look at it rationally there is no reason why those ideas shouldn’t be opend to debate as any other, except that we have agreed somehow between us that they shouldn’t be”</p>
<p>“arguments about the existence and nature of god are irrelevant”</p>
<p>I agree they are irreleveant. I don’t base my decisions upon the masses or upon the few. Religious believers; however, in an attempt to support their own cause allude to mass belief and reference authority figures, that we-infidels-would be seemingly audacious to question. When atheists are able to prove though, that some of beforementioned revered people were actually not devout christians, as believed, you are quick change your tune.</p>
<p>“The specific stories, rites, and history that are a part of different religions are not important”</p>
<p>Exactly, so why regard the bible with so much authority? Why wage wars in its name?</p>
<p>"Without religion, we would have too much diversity of opinion and too many independent thinkers. We would have a tough time rooting out non-believers and non-comformists "</p>
<p>Sorry, I was unable to see what is wrong with this. It seems that you want religion in order to conform people and manipulate them into war.</p>
<p>“If you are going to attack religion, you might as well attack nationalism. Having faith in your country, it’s leaders and actions, is not always logical, but it is certainly important to bind us together in concerted action”</p>
<p>Yes, but we know our country exists along with the leaders. There is scientific and visual proof. You raise a valid point though, abandoning nationalism. Nationalism merely translates into acquisitive leaders selling their citizen’s souls for their own agenda. No, a country should not be fought for. Ideals, principles, and beliefs maybe; countries absolutely not. Leaderss are corrupt, borders are constantly redrawn, and governments collapse. Ideals and beliefs are eternal however. These beliefs include peace, altruism, and harmony and not that which disrupts all the aforementioned: religion.</p>
<p>“Just because religous beliefs are stronger and more likely to lead to conflicts, wars and exterminations is no reason to deny the reality of religion. It is obviously a part of man’s nature.”</p>
<p>As, you stated that is not a reason to disbelieve it is merely the adverse affects of religion. A reason not to believe in religion; however, is a lack of any physical and scientific proof of god. And that which you claim to be truth, such as the bible, has actually repressed originally thought. </p>
<p>"Clearly, religious beliefs have been apart of the development of civilization. Religion is part of the glue that holds us together. "</p>
<p>If you are claiming that we need religion to be moral then I can make many arguments against that logic. If you are asserting that religion created moral fiber, that has already been debunked. Our sense of morality has a Darwinian origin and Hauser and Singer have already prove there is no statistical difference between atheists and religious believers making certain moral judgments that aren’t related to religion. Then maybe you are wondering if there is no god why be moral at all. If you were only good to “gain God’s approval and reward, or to avoid his disapproval and punishment? That’s not morality, that’s just sucking up, apple-polishing, looking over your shoulder at the surveillance camera in the sky, or the still small wiretap inside your head, monitoring your every move, even your every base though”.</p>
<p>Einstein once said “If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed”</p>
<p>Anyway, most of the bible does not advocate moral behavior.</p>
<p>“It is not logical to root for the hometown team when the performers are paid, traded off, and recruited from all over the country or world. Millions do in fact get a lot of satisfaction in rooting for the “hometown” team. Except for third world soccer matches, this enthusiasm hardly ever results in violence. Just because religous beliefs are stronger and more likely to lead to conflicts, wars and exterminations is no reason to deny the reality of religion. It is obviously a part of man’s nature.”</p>
<p>So, your argument is that because some people support sports teams, we should believe in god? That seems like a mighty jump. Sports fan bases and religions are quite different in nature.At least we know there players exist, what about yours?</p>
<p>"Although it is undoubtedly dumb to say that a ‘deist’ is not a ‘theist’ (as has been implied and now corrected), it is no less dumb to say a ‘pantheist’ is not a ‘theist.’</p>
<p>Moreover, it would not be proper to call Einstein a ‘pantheist’, in the sense that Spinoza was a pantheist"</p>
<p>Oh, so we should disregard what Einstein said about himself and instead believe you?</p>
<p>“I believe in Spinoza’s God, who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in in a God who concerns himself with the fates and actions of human”</p>
<p>“Einstein’s intuition seems to me to be closer to Jewish and Sufi mysticism. That is to say, god was not present or contained in the universe, but rather the universe emanated from god without actually being the sum total of god or god as such.”</p>
<p>Einstein, believes God is the universe. God is not a man with a white beard in the sky. God is the laws of nature and the beauty of the cosmos. If that makes him a theist, then all atheists and pantheists alike are theists.</p>
<p>“In any case, God is the premise in: pantheist, deist, or theological mysticism.” </p>
<p>Panthesits believe that nature is worthy of being called “God” since natures deserves our respect and reverence. The beauty of the cosmos is our god; the mathematical and scientific beauty.</p>
<p>Einstein:
"A knowledge of the existence of something we cannot penetrate, of the manifestation of the profoundest reason and the most radiant beauty - it is this knowledge and this emotion that constitute the truly religious attitude; in this sense, and in this sense alone, I am a deeply religious man. "</p>
<p>“Buddhism has the characteristics of what would be expected in a cosmic religion for the future: it transcends a personal God, avoids dogmas and theology; it covers both the natural and spiritual, and it is based on a religious sense arising from the experience of all things, natural and spiritual, as a meaningful unity.”</p>
<p>Einstein’s god was one in the same with Stephen Hawking’s “Yes, if by God is meant the embodiment of the laws of the universe.” </p>
<p>He did believe in the beauty of the cosmos and all its laws. That is not a God in any account, according to your thesitic views. In the pantheistic sense he believed in god, but the “God” familiar to most people he did not.</p>
<p>So, would it be “no less dumb” as you eloquently put it, to say an atheist is a theist?</p>
<p>As I said:</p>
<p>3 results for: pantheist
View results from: Dictionary | Thesaurus | Encyclopedia | All Reference | the Web</p>
<p>Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source
pan?the?ism /ˈp?nθiˌɪzəm/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[pan-thee-iz-uhm] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
?noun
- the doctrine that God is the transcendent reality of which the material universe and human beings are only manifestations: it involves a denial of God’s personality and expresses a tendency to identify God and nature.
- any religious belief or philosophical doctrine that identifies God with the universe.</p>
<p>4 results for: atheist
View results from: Dictionary | Thesaurus | Encyclopedia | All Reference | the Web</p>
<p>Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source
a?the?ist /ˈeɪθiɪst/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ey-thee-ist] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation </p>
<p>–noun a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.</p>