NESCAC Spoken Here:

College Search & Lists
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1111

The point is less whether a veteran can benefit from a Posse program at a LAC and more about whether they find the idea of studying at a LAC to be attractive. The facts indicate that they don’t.

Those programs are there to help servicepersons and veterans in the application process to college, and to prepare them for college. It doesn’t affect their admissions to the colleges where they participated in a boot camp. In 2023, Williams had 12 veterans as undergraduates, Amherst had 9, while Wesleyan had 22.

My Source:

1112

The “facts” indicate that Posse wasn’t able to serve the LACs needs. Vets are no different than the population at-large; a majority are going to lean towards engineering and business administration as majors. A subset will find a broad, liberal arts (and science) education enticing. Those are the ones Wesleyan and Vassar are going after.

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1113

My child at Vassar has pointed out that there are some courses (history department, maybe others?) that are taught in some sort of arrangement with West Point, which is not far away, and that veterans at Vassar, and officers-in-training at West Point, are in classes together with non-veteran students. Seems like that would be a fascinating dynamic.

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1114

How do you expect Posse to “serve the LACs needs”? You are blaming Posse for something that isn’t within their power to provide, and you are not understanding the mission of Posse.

Posse is excellent at recruiting Posse Scholars who end up attending attend a LAC. The majority of Posse Scholars attend LACs, and Posse “provides” close to 1,700 high quality candidates to LACs every year.

However, the mission of Posse is not to recruit students for its partner colleges. It’s to recruit students to Posse, and to support them through college. Posse works when their college partners are colleges which the students want to attend, but cannot afford to do so and are at risk of dropping out if they do attend. Posse uses the college’s own recruitment material when it’s time for nominees/applicants to choose their top colleges.

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1115

As I mentioned upthread, the Posse guy who is now a ibanker had a wife and kids during his time at Wes. I’m sure he didn’t have to live in a dorm or away from his family. And in Wes’ case, they have such a huge housing stock, including some smaller ones, they probably were able to house his family in a wood frame home.

Yes, the issue with veterans and LACs is the sell of the type of education and the debunking of career outcome myths like the barista and book store jobs bs that people who don’t know what they’re talking about typically offer up as knowledge. It’s a little indirect and it requires a little leap of faith. As the former Wes veteran hinted at in the piece, military people are coming from a background in which nuance isn’t valued at a premium and certainty and linear progression through life is the norm.

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1116

It might help to discuss Posse scholars and veterans in separate sub-threads. As you yourself have gone through great pains to point out, they are very different populations.

I think @circuitrider and a few other posters are focused on the veterans program because that is topical, and it’s topical because it represents a relatively recent change.

I’m happy to hear Posse is supplying plenty of scholars who are a fit for LACs. But veteran status is being embraced more and more as a valued form of diversity, and the loss of a steady and vetted supply of these people for schools in the NESCAC and Vassar is a thing that is being discussed. It’s news.

Whether it’s Posse’s job to supply these schools with candidates or not is a matter for Posse and the schools to settle, which they have apparently done. It seems that Vassar and Wes expected more from the partnership. Whether that was fair or not would be interesting to discuss. From an outsider’s viewpoint, if that was not Posse’s job or obligation and that’s what the schools wanted, then the schools seemingly made the right choice to kill the partnership insofar as it relates to recruiting veterans to their schools, which they ostensibly wish to do.

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1117

I actually think that the decision to end the Posse Veteran programs with the LACs was the right decision.

Posse is extremely selective, with 5% or fewer of all nominees eventually ending up as Posse Scholars. While the numbers are likely smaller for veterans, it still requires far more Veterans applying than are presently doing so, as can be seen in the numbers attending these colleges. Neither Posse nor the LACs can properly run the program with that few applicants to the Veterans program. The programs are working well at the three universities that are now partners for the Posse Veteran program - UVA, TAMU, and CWRU.

PS. I know that, when I graduated high school, I would have found the idea of attending a LAC to be fascinating and attractive. However, when I left the military, it would have been far less attractive, and I was only 21. I would definitely have chosen a university program if I were living in the USA.

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1118

I can imagine now what it must have been like for the LAC folks to sit across the table with the Posse folks.

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1119

I would guess that your profile of interest right out of high school isn’t typical for that population. I would also guess it’s just a tough sell on both sides of the line - before and after military service.

I guess with fewer grad students and other older students to help mix up the population, it’s not a great fit. But as I said, it can work very well for the right person.

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1120

It’s great to hear that vets will get the message about the benefits of a LAC. Sure, on the surface a 22 or whatever year old out in Williamstown with a bunch younger students would seem to pose some fit challenges. But like understanding the benefits of a LAC, I think the boots-on-the-ground experience involves more nuance than appears at first glance. Personalities certainly play a part; I think a willingness to take a leap and really dive into the life of the school is probably a key to success. And then the schools perhaps need to take some special care to ensure the selected students are integrating well and encourage participation in something besides study.

My Wes example no doubt benefited a great deal by participating in a sport, where he instantly made a bunch of good friends. He eventually made his way into the 1V and enjoyed some success doing it, which also helps. He was selected to intern at the Investments Office under Anne Martin (pretty competitive and sought after on-campus internship) and learn fund management and investing by one of the best doing it now. That, and the sports connections, eventually led him to a career in investment banking. This guy had two (I believe) young kids and a wife. On the surface, it would seem very hard to pull off that kind of full or loaded up student life and balance family but he was able to do it. Maybe a more standoffish personality or someone who doesn’t like being uncomfortable or in unfamiliar surroundings wouldn’t pull it off. You have to know where you’re at, and why you’re there. Anyway, my kid knows him to this day.

I’d be curious to know for sure, but I doubt he graduated from HS dreaming of attending a small private college in Connecticut. Someone must’ve coached him up. That’s what I would would have imagined Posse would do. Hopefully the new associations are more fruitful for all parties. I think it’s magnificent that this type of school is reaching out to this population. There is so much potential benefit for everyone involved.

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1121

Despite the competition for admissions in a small number of LACs, the popularity of LACs among high school graduates isn’t that high. Around 4% of all college students attend a LAC, and that percentage has dropped over the years.

That is very true for all age groups and backgrounds who are looking to attend a LAC, but more so for students who are not of the typical age and background of colleges students.

Personally I think that LACs are amazing, and a great place for recent high school graduates, and more should look into LACs for college. However, one of the most important parts of fit for LACs is social fit, and I don’t think that many veterans have a good social fit.

I also think that LACs should encourage more veterans to attend LACs. However, I don’t think that many veterans will do so. So unless this changes, the Posse Veterans project will likely partner only with large universities.

Posse advertises the effectiveness of the idea of sending students in groups of 10 to colleges that these people would usually not attend, so that they will provide a support system for each other. They rely on the colleges to provide the info that will attract students to that articular college.

As I wrote above, LACs have yet to figure out a good script that attracts veterans in the sort of numbers that makes Posse Veteran viable. Wesleyan’s page is starting to look better in that it states the advantages of a LAC education to a veteran. However, they still need to address the issue of how it will help the veteran enter the workforce, since many veterans are already “behind” their peers, careerwise.

Thinking of your Wes example, part may also be that LACs need to convince veterans that the career paths of Wesleyan graduates are open and viable for them as well.

I may be wrong, but I also guess that he also didn’t graduate from high school dreaming of having a career in investment banking. I also doubt that he believed that his service would help him in such a career.

That’s what these LACs should also be advertising - that these LACs will open new opportunities for careers that the veterans hadn’t even thought of, and that their service will be a huge benefit to them in these careers.

For the record, I am a volunteer interviewer for the first interview for Posse (there are three), and as a CV coach. I am not a director, an administrator, a trainer, or part of the board of directors.

Feel free to imagine what “Posse Folk” are like based on me, but it will likely not be what they actually are like.

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1122

Agreed. But let’s be honest, they have a hard enough time selling it to the general public.

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1123

Many consider this a feature rather than a detriment. They are hard enough to get into already. Imagine what it would be like if the general public understood their actual impact on students.

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1124

Well, it doesn’t take a huge stretch of the imagination:

LACs: We notice that you’ve invited 3 other institutions, all universities, all about triple our size to be partner institutions. We’re assuming there will be some growth in the number of applicants?

Posse: Not really.

LACs: Oh, so it’s like that.

Posse: Yup.

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1125

To be honest, in your imagined conversation, the LACs come across as a bit whiny “why do you like UVA, TAMU, and CWRU more than us?”

Not how I think that LAC administrators would act.

In any case, the conversation would, in fact require a pretty big stretch of the imagination. It entirely ignores the timelines, it ignores the Posse interview process, and it ignores Posse’s mission.

1126

And there we are.

1127

I have no idea what your beef is with Posse, but you seem hellbent on proving that somehow, the reason that the partnership of Wesleyan with Posse Veterans is the result of some moral or ethical failing on part of Posse. I have no idea where you got your ideas about how Posse works, but I can tell you that you’re wrong.

You seem to have have strong opinions about Posse, but also seem to suffer from a lack of knowledge about it.
Case in point:

Time for some actual facts. The Posse Veterans program was started in 2013. The founder of Posse, Deborah Bial, received the Macarthur Genius Award in 2007, President Obama donated a large chunk of his Nobel Peace prize to Posse in 2010, and there were thousands of Posse Scholars at dozens of colleges before 2013.

All of this is in their Wikipedia page. So you produced all of your claims, imaginary scenarios, and opinions about Posse without even having read their Wikipedia page.

1128

Please stop. I think we’ve exhausted the subject.

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1129

I agree.

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1130

These are potential climate projections for the year 2080 based on the site linked below:

The climate for Colby is projected to become like that of Salem, Kentucky.

The climate for Bates is projected to become like that of Hardy, Arkansas.

The climate for Bowdoin is projected to become like that of La Center, Kentucky.

The climate for Hamilton is projected to become like that of Tamms, Illinois.

The climate for Williams is projected to become like that of Rocky Hill, New Jersey.

The climate for Amherst is projected to become like that of Ola, Arkansas.

The climate for Trinity is projected to become like that of Oppelo, Arkansas.

The climate for Wesleyan is projected to become like that of Rockport, Arkansas.

The climate for Tufts is projected to become like that of Lakeland, Tennessee.

The climate for Connecticut College is projected to become like that of White Oak, Mississippi.

Middlebury: N/A

fitzlab.shinyapps.io/cityapp/

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