<p>News reports posted this afternoon reveal information that might be advantageous to George Zimmerman’s defense. The problem is, Trayvon Martin is not around to provide his own side of the story. Is it credible that an unarmed Martin confronted and attacked a man brandishing a gun? And if the newly disclosed information is accurate, why in heaven’s name didn’t the police issue a full [and transparent] report earlier?</p>
<p>In my opinion, it is not credible as the 911 tapes clearly tell Zimmerman to not follow the kid and yet he followed the kid, for no other reason, apparently, then the kid was black.</p>
<p>Who knows? A guy with a gun follows an unarmed man, explicitly against police directives. He catches up to him and, one way or another, shoots him. It might have been after a struggle, or not, but the question really is why was he there to begin with?</p>
<p>Imagine it another way: Zimmerman follows Trayvon, gun in hand. He gets out of car and says, “Hold it.” What does he say next? If a guy followed you around, then got out of his car brandishing a weapon, what do you do next? I’d probably think I was about to be robbed or pistol-whipped, or that the guy was crazy. And you bet I’d struggle if I had the opportunity.</p>
<p>It isn’t clear to me yet whether Zimmerman had his gun out when he began his confrontation with Trayvon. </p>
<p>It will be interesting to know what the angle of the shot that killed Trayvon was. Zimmerman’s injuries are consistent with someone who was punched in the nose and fell to the ground and hit his head. If Trayvon was then standing over him, Zimmerman could have reached into his pocket, taken out his gun and shot Trayvon. </p>
<p>If Zimmerman had pulled a gun on Trayvon to begin the confrontation and there was a struggle for it, then the angle of the shot would be very different. </p>
<p>A 13 year old witness saw Zimmerman on the ground. Did he see anything earlier than that?</p>
<p>You’re probably right Mini in that investigators may never be able to verify the actual timeline and circumstances of the gunfire. Lots of ifs. Ironically, the ‘Stand Your Ground’ law would have given legal protection to Martin if indeed the young man turned to confront and Zimmerman. But if today’s revelations are true, such an act by Martin essentially flips the protection in the law as it was written, by providing Zimmerman with a valid defense the second the alleged punch by Martin landed on Zimmerman’s nose. That’s the tragedy of this case; Zimmerman improperly initiated the chain of events, with the exception of the actual violence…if his story is to believed. </p>
<p>This sad case brings to mind a comment in a course I took ages ago from a criminal law professor. He said that you couldn’t start a fistfight, get whupped, and then beg for the justice system to prosecute the guy who beat you.</p>
<p>So, someone calls the police and the police say, “Don’t follow him,” and when he catches up to the person, who he was told NOT to chase, the person turns around and defends himself.</p>
<p>Sounds like the person “standing their ground” was the victim in this case, who was shot with a gun.</p>
<p>The fact that ANY murder can take place without a full police investigation is ridiculous. Whether to prove innocence (which should actually be the point of every police investigation, btw), or to find a guilty party, or whatever, the evidence, had it been collected, as it should have been collected at a murder investigation, would have told us all sorts of things about what happened.</p>
<p>But, you can’t just chase someone down demanding that they stop, when you are not a police officer, and expect not to face a confrontation. I don’t care if this young man turned around and beat the guy up, it was self-defense. Chasing someone down is simply not self-defense. No matter what “neighborhood watch” team you are on.</p>
<p>Who knows what the witnesses saw, and when. The 13 year old said he also didn’t see the shooting, so between the shooting and when the kid saw the two, who know what happened.</p>
<p>The shooting occurred around 7pm, when the sun set around 5:45pm. So how well lit was the area, such that anyone could clearly see what happened? </p>
<p>I hear Zimmerman had injuries on his face and head. I have not heard anything about Martin, injuries or no injuries. One “witness” says she saw Zimmerman with his hands on Martins back after Martin was shot. Was the blood on Zimmerman’s face his, or Martin’s? What was the distance between the two when Martin was shot, and was he shot from above or below? </p>
<p>According to the 911 tape, Zimmerman says “he’s running” out the back entrance. So how did they suddenly come together again? </p>
<p>This would have been a good deal more clear if the police had actually, you know, asked some questions.</p>
<p>Krugman’s column “Lobbyist” has an interesting take on the incident.</p>
<p>Zimmerman had no business confronting Trayvon. If it turns out that he pursued Trayvon, which is what the public evidence points to so far, then he is responsible for Trayvon’s death. I really think it’s irrelevant whether or not Trayvon fought Zimmerman provided that he did not seek out Zimmerman.</p>
<p>I do not believe there is any law against following someone unless there is some court order. That’s what watch groups do. I do not think there is anything the cops could do about it until there was some other criminal action.</p>
<p>Why does it always come down to law with you?</p>
<p>From what I’ve heard, it’s against neighborhood watch principles to carry a weapon, or to pursue a suspect, or to have any interaction with him. Zimmerman had called the police a few dozen times in the past year. We know from the 911 tapes that Zimmerman persisted in following Trayvon even after being told to stop. He was out looking for trouble. Trayvon was coming home from having purchased iced tea for himself and candy for his younger brother, for them to eat while watching some sports even with their father. Trayvon was talking on his cell phone to his girlfriend, and he expressed concern about the guy who was following him. Who was on “offense” and who was on “defense”?</p>
<p>It took Trayvon’s parents 3 days to find out what had happened to him. The police made no attempt to identify the dead teenager, even though he had a cell phone and it would have been easy. They did not return multiple phone calls from two women who lived in the house where Trayvon was killed. These women have been speaking out on local media for a couple of weeks, and their account is not consistent with Zimmerman’s. Something really stinks here.</p>
<p>Maybe Zimmerman is telling the truth about his injuries, maybe not. As far as I know, there are no photos or documentation of his injuries, except in a supplemental police report filed after the fact.</p>
<p>IMO–</p>
<p>The point being missed by everyone, including the media, is this: why would “stand your ground” only apply to zimmerman? If Trayvon did fight back, then that is “stand your ground,” too. Sounds like a strange law if stand your ground applies equally to the one being chased and the one who is chased. I mean, what???</p>
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<p>Exactly right. For goodness sake, no less an authority than 911 told Zimmerman to not follow Trayvon.</p>
<p>This case breaks my heart. I am glad to see that instead of blaming the victim, the vast majority of people are seeing this case for what it was.</p>
<p>I wonder if this is like a sexual assault and then blaming the woman that she caused it. By her dress or where she was. I wouldn’t blame the victim in that case and I can’t blame Trayvon either. </p>
<p>I just don’t see any defense when an unarmed kid was walking home and Zimmerman was in his car and had to get out of it and confront Trayvon. And Zimmerman had a weapon and had to unholster it and shoot it.</p>
<p>I thought I read somewhere that Zimmerman said he lost sight of Trayvon and was returning to his car to meet the police when Trayvon jumped him and he defended himself. To me - if he said that - it completely contradicts other evidence such as Trayvon’s gf saying she was talking to him until there was some kind of interruption (headset fell off). It also defies reality when Z was so closely following T and trying to make sure he didn’t get away. </p>
<p>If there was any type of confrontation I can only imagine that T was seeking to defend himself. It’s sad that it’s going to be so difficult to get to the absolute truth of this situation - bu all evidence I’ve seen points toward improper actions on Z’s fault.</p>
<p>I sincerely don’t understand why Zimmerman thought that whatever Tayvon was doing was any of his business. I’m sure Tayvon wondered the same thing. And now a mom has buried her baby. Incomprehensible.</p>
<p>I agree with zoosermom - what was Trayvon doing that was “suspicious” such that it warranted a 911 call? That in and of itself calls Zimmerman’s judgment into question. </p>
<p>From Trayvon’s perspective, he’s a 17 year old kid. He sees a man obviously watching him, older than him, bigger by about 100 pounds (reportedly). The man follows him, even when Trayvon starts to run. You hear Zimmerman huffing and puffing on the 911 call. There may be missing pieces in this incident, but if I were that kids, I would have been terrified.</p>
<p>According to the girlfriend Trayvon was on the phone with, the two exchanged words, and the headset fell off. Since she was listening on the headset, Zimmerman had to have been close enough for his voice to be heard through the headset. A big, older guy with a gun that close to you might constitute assault, without even worrying about who committed battery.</p>
<p>Because it is half the reason these patrols exist, Mini. The law is you cannot do anything about somebody acting weird until they actually do something illegal. So cops ignore people hanging around and often up to no good because they cannot make them move along or anything. People get fed up and start these patrol groups because they somewhat rightly feel the cops do nothing until it is too late. We have that issue right in downtown Seattle every day. So you get untrained and maybe wrongly motivated citizens trying to protect their neighborhood. And then sometimes you get these tragedies. It’s a problem.</p>
<p>I wasn’t there and don’t know what happened. I plan on waiting until the investigation is complete and letting the police do their job.</p>