<p>MommaJ…you are exactly right. All that really matters is what transpired between the 2 when the met…and we may never know.</p>
<p>""(And, from what we know, Trayvon Martin never killed anyone - Black, white, or green)"
Quote:
“And how could we possibly know that? Unless of course, this has a pre-scripted storyline. Nothing more to it than we want to believe and what the press edits to show us.”</p>
<p>It’s perfectly acceptable, it seems, to say that about Black kids in certain circles, isn’t it?</p>
<p>^ you don’t know who started the fight…who threw the first punch?..I don’t know…do you?
Confronting someone to see what they are doing is not starting a fight. Again, we don’t know what happened…</p>
<p>Every day that they hold off on the arrest is another opportunity for Z to flee.</p>
<p>who threw the first punch? </p>
<p>following someone for no good reason, with a loaded gun, confronting them is not a form of intimidation? and to use your language, don’t tell me there was a good reason because you already stated he didn’t need one.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Perhaps given that her own black son was treated with suspicion for doing nothing, as he was growing up. She made a post about this early on in the thread.</p>
<p>myturnow… maybe he THOUGHT he had a good reason…Sounds like many dismiss the need for neighborhood watch people…what if Z didn’t have a gun? Would you be against someone asking someone else they don’t recognize in your neighborhood what they were up to?</p>
<p>""(And, from what we know, Trayvon Martin never killed anyone - Black, white, or green)"
Quote:
“And how could we possibly know that? Unless of course, this has a pre-scripted storyline. Nothing more to it than we want to believe and what the press edits to show us.”</p>
<p>It’s perfectly acceptable, it seems, to say that about Black kids in certain circles, isn’t it?"</p>
<p>Maybe it is to you. To a rational person who isn’t looking for a hint of racism in every possible place, they might consider that one can’t make blanket statements about people they do not know. Black, white or green.</p>
<p>And I understand your point, poetgrl. We all are what our past experiences have made us. I am hypersensitive about certain things also. But that doesn’t make it always the right way to react, and can do more harm than good.</p>
<p>You know, it’s funny, I’ve never once on this thread claimed I believed Z was racist, or that the shooting was racially motivated.</p>
<p>What I do see, however, is a history of racism in the police department in a community that is 30% black and where the black people have been complaining about the racism of the police in their community for a while now.</p>
<p>at the very least, now the police department can be investigated and, perhaps, they can be taught the proper investigative procedure. At the very least, they displayed no knowledge of modern forensic techniques and could use a refresher course. At worst? </p>
<p>I think that will be up to either DOJ or a jury, or both, to determine.</p>
<p>Geeps, if Z didn’t have a gun he wouldn’t have felt emboldened to get out of his vehicle.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I don’t think this makes sense, actually. If the incident is instigated by one of the two, and that one knows he is carrying and ready to use deadly force, that fact immediately and deeply unbalances the encounter itself, drastically, to tip the responsibility toward the instigator/gun-possessor.</p>
<p>^ what if the one not carrying the gun instigated the PHYSICAL confrontation?</p>
<p>^Still the responsibility of the provoker. It is his actions that would have led to the other guy to (hypothetically) resort to physical confrontation because of the actions of the first guy. And additionally, again, the first guy’s actions were contingent on knowing that, if his choices result in the other guy responding violently, well, too bad for instigatee; because instigator knows he’s packing. Responsible on two counts–the direct cause of the confrontation, and the one who is able to escalate it from fight to execution.</p>
<p>“If the incident is instigated by one of the two, and that one knows he is carrying and ready to use deadly force, that fact immediately and deeply unbalances the encounter itself, drastically, to tip the responsibility toward the instigator/gun-possessor.”</p>
<p>I agree with this. It’s one thing to have a gun, safely put away, in your house for self protection purposes. You are not going to have it with you at all times, ready to use it at a moments notice. But if someone breaks into your house, it’s there. And that person probably deserves what’s coming to them if don’t leave, but continue to threaten you. Carrying a gun around in public, in my opinion, requires an entirely different mindset and a higher qualification of safety and training. I’m pretty comfortable with off duty cops and people who have spent a lot of time training, carrying their weapons around. Joe know nothing off the street? Not so much.</p>
<p>Especially because, knowledgable of SYG as he apparently is, he should have known that someone being threatened might feel moved to stand his ground. (response to geeps, not bd).</p>
<p>I went grocery shopping around 4:30 today. It was chilly and rainy. I saw a total of about half a dozen teenage boys walking around. Every one of them was wearing a hoodie with the hood up. One of them, a black boy, was walking across the Trader Joe’s parking lot, carrying what looked like his lunch (or dinner). His hoodie was an official Trader Joe’s garment, so I assume that he was going to work there. </p>
<p>What is this thing about hoodies making boys look like gangsters? It seems like an almost universal garment among boys of that age, very practical because the hood can be put up if it starts to rain.</p>
<p>I feel ill about the attempts to damage Trayvon’s reputation, presumably to make him seem more deserving of his fate. No one has been able to find anything he has done that is outside the range of normal behavior for teenage boys. </p>
<p>The protesters are asking only for Zimmerman to be tried. If he is charged, I am sure that he will have excellent legal representation, and every chance to tell his side of the story. This would not have happened if Trayvon’s parents had not managed to get his story out. It is not clear even now that this will happen.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Why yes. Yes it does, because the vast majority of people never commit murder. Therefore, the assumption of innocence should be logically afforded us (both within the justice system—optimally, and within the general population) in the absence of reason to believe otherwise. Murder requires both motive and opportunity, and there’s no evidence that Trayon Martin, Justin Bieber, Briston Palin, et al had either of those things in common with the death of any nameable murder victim. Probably less than 1% of the overall population ever commits murder. So yes, it makes perfect sense to confidently declare Trayvon Martin innocent of the murder of anyone.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>No, of course it doesn’t. Suspicion merely means there are reasons to question the possible motive/opportunity equation of a particular person in connection with the death of another particular person, as they might intersect within a particular scenario. If a stranger across town is murdered tonight, and you are sound asleep in your bed at the time, it can be logically stated that you are innocent of that person’s death, as you had neither motive nor opportunity. Trayon Martin has not been in the position to raise suspicion in the death of anyone, because the motive opportunity equation has never implicated him in the murder of even one nameable individual. That is why your statement took my breath away, and I was quite surprised that you, in particular, would say such a thing. </p>
<p>This poor dead child has been smeared and vilified nine ways to Sunday, all in an attempt to… do what? Insinuate that he was indeed “up to no good,” or a “potential” (by virtue of his instances of juvenile rebellion) danger to the Twin Lakes community that night? Therefore, George Zimmerman had every reason to call 911 to report him as “suspicious”? To follow him with a loaded gun, against every responsibly agreed upon Neighborhood Watch protocol, as well as the admonitions of the 911 operator? Fox News and any number of other mostly conservative news/commentary outlets seem to think so. And I quite frankly find that disgusting, because, as I’ve already noted, my son could easily have found himself in such a circumstance—was indeed deemed a “suspicious character” just by virtue of his audacity to walk down the street. and he wasn’t even wearing a hoodie. I have a nephew who looks remarkably like Trayvon Martin. He was a 4.50 gpa high school honor student who is now a midshipman at The U.S. Merchant Marine Academy, and who happens to both own and wear upon occasion, hoodies. Had it been him walking back to a friend’s house in the Twin Lakes community that night, I’m sure Mr. Zimmerman would have seen him to be every bit the threat he deemed Trayvon to have been. That’s what scares me.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Well, I am quite honestly sorry to hear that. But unless you may, by the preponderance of reasonable evidence, be implicated in the death of anyone, you are innocent of murder. Therefore, it is not outside the realm of logic to definitively declare that you are. Now, assault, perhaps. Most of us have been in at least one childhood fight, almost invariably if we happen to have siblings. I don’t know the particulars of “how close” you came to murder, but close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades. </p>
<p>None of Trayvon’s high school suspensions were for fights or other acts of physical violence, by the way.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>There’s new research that shows carrying a gun actually creates a different mindset:</p>
<p>
</p>
<p><a href=“http://nd.edu/~jbrockm1/WittBrockmole_inPress_JEPHPP.pdf[/url]”>http://nd.edu/~jbrockm1/WittBrockmole_inPress_JEPHPP.pdf</a></p>
<p>excellent post poetsheart, as you point out none of Trayvon’s suspensions were related to violence. OTOH Zimmerman has a history of violent and scapegoating behavior and arrests. These are facts.</p>
<p>Bay (#604) maybe you answered your own question. Maybe the authorities want to be sure they know where Z is before an arrest. Maybe they don’t. Maybe he has already fled.</p>