New Details in the Zimmerman-Martin Controversy

<p>Geeps, geeps, I’m not attacking. I’m just saying that you might be an ax murderer, so I’m keeping an open mind. After all, sometimes murderers post on the internet, and I have no reason to know that you’re not an ax murderer.</p>

<p>Some people might say that absent any evidence whatsoever of criminality, we assume a person is not a criminal, but you and I don’t follow that foolish standard, now do we? Murderers are disproportionately male, and as far as I know you’re male, so I’m keeping an open mind.</p>

<p>Don’t worry about geeps, we know he’s innocent, because he carries around Skittles and iced tea.</p>

<p>Fang…from your postings,you might be a weird person. I will keep an open mind however…</p>

<p>I’m pretty sure Fang’s last post was satiric, geeps.</p>

<p>I’m a very weird person indeed, geeps.</p>

<p>07Dad said:</p>

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<p>I don’t get it. In this thread, we’re talking about whether Trayvon’s race had anything to do with his killing. Now we hear about the horrible case in Tulsa, where a number of apparently blameless black people out walking were shot in separate incidents by a person described as white. Two white men have been arrested for the crime.</p>

<p>And this is an example of white people being in danger of race-motivated violence how?</p>

<p>Blame the victim is a mentality and tool often used to deny, minimize issues and take focus off of the perpetrators </p>

<p>Sent from my MB860 using CC</p>

<p>myturnnow- true enough. However, “thie victim” is yet to be identified in this scenerio. That is the major rub. Zimmerman says he is the victim.</p>

<p>^^ And what does Trayvon say? Oh wait, he’s dead. Well then, I don’t see any problem with just accepting whatever Zimmerman says.</p>

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<p>Trayvon Martin, being dead, is clearly and unequivocally the “victim” of a homicide. That is beyond dispute. (Anyone who would say otherwise either doesn’t know the meaning of the word “victim” or the meaning of the word “homicide”)</p>

<p>Whether or not that homicide was legally excusable or justifiable has yet to be determined. The immunity conferred by the Florida “stand your ground” law may make prosecution somewhat more difficult than in most other jurisdictions, as it places a somewhat higher evidentiary burden on the prosecution.</p>

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<p>I think most people fully understand the point you are trying to make. The problem is, it strains credibility that someone who had already judged another a likely criminal, who had gone after that person with a loaded gun based on that assessment, who had confronted that person, and ultimately shot him dead, can then claimed he acted in self-defense. The self-described “victim,” the only one who was actually armed during the encounter, wants everyone to believe that he was justified in killing the person upon whom he’d all along been acting as judge and jury. It’s abundantly clear from his own words that Zimmerman had decided Travon Martin was guilty of being “up to no good,” of being “on drugs or something,” of being a “real suspicious guy”, and of being one of the “a$$holes” that “always get away.” Certainly, the fact that Trayvon decided to run, only seemed to reinforce GZ’s determination that this one not get away. After all, why would the boy be running away from the only man who clearly had his number, the only man who, in the immediate, had the power to make sure this one didn’t “get away”?</p>

<p>Trayvon Martin had already exercised the “flight” option when he first understood this stranger was following him, and then the “fight” option when it became obvious running had not shaken the stranger off his tail. But now it appears that each option damned him in equal measure: He was guilty for running, and he was guilty of his own shooting because he fought off the perceived threat with all the adrenaline he could muster.</p>

<p>But, the apologists want you to believe it was the guy with the gun (a gun whose safety was apparently already off when he and his supposed attacker began wrestling on the ground—after all, if your head is being repeatedly pounded against the pavement, and you’re within moments of passing out with your arms pinned to the ground by a drug addled maniac, surely you could scarcely have demonstrated the dexterity necessary to unlatch the safety on your weapon prior to shooting him) who was probably the victim in all this. The law is on his side, after all. He was “in fear for his life,” the stalker with the gun.</p>

<p>Except, all the muckety-mucks who advocated for, and signed into law the bill that was aimed at exempting an armed citizen from being obligated to attempt to flee from danger, especially while in their own home, are now all proclaiming the law was never meant to cover the person who purposely pursues supposed danger from an initial position of total safety. It was never meant to serve as cover when you shoot someone dead who had not posed a danger to you prior to your decision to pursue them with a loaded gun. After all, with you being the only one left alive with a story to tell, what’s to stop you from framing a narrative that puts you in a legal safety zone? What’s to stop you, in the absence of other witnesses, from possibly getting away with out and out murder, as long as you can claim you had no choice but to shoot someone who was attacking you? After all, dead men tell no tails.</p>

<p>No tales, I mean.</p>

<p>thank you poetsheart for your words. I echo them.</p>

<p>Actually, it was in the news that those tapes were edited to sound like the guy said he was following because the kid was black.</p>

<p>Old news, Imkh70. How much of the thread have you read thus far?</p>

<p>Really old news. The producer who approved/allowed the edit has been fired, as he/she should have been.</p>

<p>For those interested in the expansion of the law of defense under the Stand Your Ground statute, this research and policy paper by the National District Attorneys Association is something to consider. They were less than hapy about these efforts.</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.ndaa.org/pdf/Castle%20Doctrine.pdf[/url]”>http://www.ndaa.org/pdf/Castle%20Doctrine.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>I noticed this morning that several more corporate donors are dropping the non-profit advocacy group that has been at the forefront of the expansion of these laws.</p>

<p>Anyone feel strongly whether the case will be submitted to the grand jury or decided by the special prosecutor? I read a statement attributed to her that she has never taken a justifiable homicide position to the grand jury, she had always done the investigation and made the prosecute/not prosecute call. Will she stick with that here? Just got my answer–<a href=“http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/special-prosecutor-wont-take-trayvon-martin-death-to-grand-jury-still-investigating/2012/04/09/gIQAEjM55S_story.html”>http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/special-prosecutor-wont-take-trayvon-martin-death-to-grand-jury-still-investigating/2012/04/09/gIQAEjM55S_story.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>[Special</a> prosecutor: Won’t take Trayvon Martin death to grand jury, still investigating - The Washington Post](<a href=“http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/special-prosecutor-wont-take-trayvon-martin-death-to-grand-jury-still-investigating/2012/04/09/gIQAEjM55S_story.html]Special”>http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/special-prosecutor-wont-take-trayvon-martin-death-to-grand-jury-still-investigating/2012/04/09/gIQAEjM55S_story.html)</p>

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<p>I had never heard of the American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC) until last week, and it’s scary stuff. This group operates in the shadows to write laws which benefit its membership – mega-corporations – and which undermine democracy (aren’t laws supposed to be written by lawmakers in the best interest of their constituents, or of the country?). Among the items on their agenda:</p>

<ul>
<li><p>Restrictive voter ID laws and an array of related initiatives that threaten to suppress voting by residents of rural regions, students, senior citizens and people of color.</p></li>
<li><p>Anti-labor laws designed to limit the ability of Americans to organize and have a voice in their workplaces and the public life of their communities, states and nation.</p></li>
<li><p>Tort “reform,” deregulation and corporate tax-slashing schemes that eliminate tools to assure multinational corporations act responsibly and contribute to the communities and states where they operate.</p></li>
<li><p>Money-in-politics initiatives that seek to remove barriers to domination of elections by corporations and billionaire right-wing donors—such as longtime ALEC supporters Charles and David Koch.</p></li>
<li><p>Privatization schemes that undermine public education and public services, posing particular threats to rural communities and urban neighborhoods that rely on strong public institutions.</p></li>
<li><p>Kill-at-will laws that prevent police and prosecutors from effectively investigating shootings such as that of Trayvon Martin in Florida, Bo Morrison in Wisconsin and others who have been killed since states began to enact so-called “Castle Doctrine” and “Stand Your Ground” laws.</p></li>
</ul>

<p>[Don’t</a> Just Pressure ALEC’s Sponsors, Name and Shame ALEC Legislators | The Nation](<a href=“http://www.thenation.com/blog/167269/dont-just-pressure-alecs-corporate-sponsors-name-and-shame-alec-legislators]Don’t”>http://www.thenation.com/blog/167269/dont-just-pressure-alecs-corporate-sponsors-name-and-shame-alec-legislators)</p>

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I just want to throw out the possibility that some people have a strong belief in the concept of “innocent until proven guilty,” no matter who the accused person is. It’s not easy to take that position sometimes, as demonstrated in both this and the Penn State threads.</p>