New Law Schools

[sallyawp]

<p>The following are some exerpts from an article in the National Law Journal:</p>

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Too Many Lawyer Factories and More on the Way</p>

<p>By Leigh Jones

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As many as 10 new law schools are in the works, with the majority of them proposed in the eastern part of the country. </p>

<p>While their proponents insist that the schools will serve the needs of their communities and beyond, the plans are drawing sharp criticism from those who argue that creating more law schools is irresponsible. </p>

<p>With three new law schools proposed in New York alone and others also in the early stages in Connecticut, Maine, Pennsylvania and elsewhere, developing facilities to pump out juris doctor degrees is the goal du jour for institutions looking to build a bigger name for themselves. </p>

<p>Planners assert that their schools will offer specialized programs and innovative curricula to J.D. hopefuls. Critics, however, point to a tight job market and starting salaries that do not cover the ballooning costs of tuition for the majority of students already graduating from the nation’s hundreds of law schools.

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<p>

Prescott [the dean-to-be at a new law school in Wilkes-Barre, PA] cited a number of reasons to launch a law school in Pennsylvania. First, the closest law school to the area is a two-hour drive away, he said. Second, he sees a need for creative, hands-on training absent in legal education today. Third, a “brand new school,” he said, can provide such innovation more readily than older schools constricted by outmoded traditions.

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Wilkes University will be competing with Pennsylvania’s other schools, which include Duquesne University School of Law; Pennsylvania State University Dickinson School of Law; University of Pennsylvania Law School; University of Pittsburgh School of Law; Temple University James E. Beasley School of Law; Villanova University School of Law; and Widener University School of Law.

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In New York, 15 law schools already are in operation. As in Pennsylvania, they run the rankings spectrum, from top-tier New York University Law School to Touro College Jacob D. Fuchsberg Law Center, ranked in the fourth tier by U.S. News & World Report. </p>

<p>Plans are in motion within the State University of New York system to launch two law schools: one at Stony Brook University on Long Island and another in Binghamton, about 200 miles from New York City. In addition, state lawmakers also have set aside money for a law school upstate in Rochester, which would be affiliated with St. John Fisher College. </p>

<p>Other proposals in the Northeast include a new law school at the University of New Haven in Connecticut and another at Husson College in Bangor, Maine. Elsewhere in the country, Louisiana College in Pineville, La., is set to open a Christian-focused law school, and Lincoln Memorial University is planning a law school in Knoxville, Tenn. </p>

<p>In Boise, Idaho, Concordia University has a law school in the works and University of Idaho College of Law is expected to open a branch in Boise as well. </p>

<p>Almost all of the new schools will seek accreditation from the American Bar Association (ABA). Nearly all states, with the notable exception of California, require students to graduate from an ABA-accredited law school in order to take the bar exam.</p>

<p>All of those schools are in addition to University of California, Irvine Donald Bren School of Law, expected to open in autumn 2009, and at least seven other law schools that have popped up across the country in the last five years seeking accreditation by the ABA. </p>

<p>“This is beyond absurd,” said William Henderson, a professor at Indiana University School of Law — Bloomington. His scholarship focuses on the legal job market.

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Part of Henderson’s research focuses on so-called “bad outcomes” experienced by law students, which include graduates who were unemployed nine months after graduation, whose job status was unknown or students who flunked out. He determined the 50 law schools with the highest percentages of “bad outcomes,” and revealed a range between 49.1% and 27.9% of bad outcomes among the 20 law schools with the highest percentages of such outcomes. All of those schools were ranked either in the third or fourth tier by U.S. News & World Report. </p>

<p>“The popular perception is that there’s a big monolith of wealth,” he said. “The reality is that some people are making lots of money and a lot of people are not able to make a living.”

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[Greybeard]

<p>Very interesting. </p>

<p>Those of you who are interested in reading William Henderson’s publications can find links to sites where they can be downloaded here: [William</a> Henderson](<a href=“Directory: Alumni: Maurer School of Law: Indiana University Bloomington”>Directory: Alumni: Maurer School of Law: Indiana University Bloomington)</p>

<p>Here’s another link everyone who is considering law school should check out: [Empirical</a> Legal Studies: Distribution of 2006 Starting Salaries: Best Graphic Chart of the Year](<a href=“http://www.elsblog.org/the_empirical_legal_studi/2007/09/distribution-of.html]Empirical”>http://www.elsblog.org/the_empirical_legal_studi/2007/09/distribution-of.html)</p>

<p>It’s a graph showing the salaries earned by recent law school grads a few years ago. It’s a bimodal distribution: one large group has salaries clustered around $130K, and another large group has salaries clustered around $45k.</p>

[marny1]

<p>StonyBrook and Binghamton won’t attract the T-14 “Big Law” crowd, but it may encourage alot more kids to consider law and public sector, non-profit jobs. Tuition at Buffalo Law is $13,200 for NYS kids–$20,000 OOS.</p>

<p>This may bring in a whole new crop of idealistic kids who just want to go to law school to better society and not just talk about Big Law salaries and working 80 hours a week!</p>

[kmzizzle]

<p>no1 wants to better society these days!</p>

[marny1]

<p>If we want this earth to be around for our grandkids, we better ALL work to make this world a better and healthier environment for all.</p>

[unbelievablem]

<p>I think when one considers whether to be critical of the establishment of new law schools, a distinction should be make between public and private schools. The former are offering a chance to obtain a law school education at a reasonable price – how often is it mentioned here that those not attending the top tier law schools often incur enormous debt with little chance to land a job that will make debt repayment feasible? Additional public affordable law schools can allow people who really want to become lawyers to enter the field without finances being the overriding issue it is at a private school.
With respect to new private law schools? I think you do have to wonder as to what the school will really be offering its students in exchange for the undoubtedly hefty price tag.</p>

[marny1]

<p>Unbelievablem- I agree. For those not familiar with NYS colleges, Stony Brook and Bing are apart of the SUNY system, so I assume the tuition will be in line with SUNY Buffalo Law School.</p>

<p>It will be interesting how tuition at St. John Fisher will compare, as that is a private college.</p>

<p>A SUNY Law school on Long Island with tuition under $15,000?? It’s a beautiful thing.</p>

<p>When the article in Newsday came out about Stony Brook Law school a few months ago, there was discussion that SB was trying to take over Touro Law school. Whether that is still the plan, or if they are going to establish their own law school is something I do not know.</p>

[unbelievablem]

<p>Nothing came of the possible deal with Touro – at this point, Stony brook would be starting a new school if it starts a law school – [Difficult</a> Steps Ahead for Possible Law School | SB Now!](<a href=“http://www.stonybrooknow.com/content/difficult-steps-ahead-possible-law-school]Difficult”>http://www.stonybrooknow.com/content/difficult-steps-ahead-possible-law-school)</p>

[marny1]

<p>Thanks for the update. I wondered what happened to that proposal.</p>

<p>I wouldn’t rule out Stony Brook Law just yet. Didn’t SB just take over Southhampton College?? So my guess is that there is probably land-buildings- infrastructure etc. to play around with. And as it is on Long Island/Hamptons area, I’d think they could attract professors from other schools. </p>

<p>Getting law professors to move to Binghamton may be a much harder sell.</p>

[unbelievablem]

<p>

Getting law professors to move to Binghamton may be a much harder sell.

</p>

<p>ah - that sounds a little NYC-centric Given the glut of law school grads in general and the tightening of the opportunities at law firms (especially for those who’ve worked for several years), I wouldn’t be surprised if there were plenty of potential law professors for whom Binghamton could be an interesting stopping point, if not their final goal destination. It’s only about an hour from Cornell and Syracuse Law Schools, both of which manage to attract faculty (and may be the source for adjunct professors?). [and what is supposed to be an hour commute around Binghamton is actually likely to be an hour commute, unlike Long Island where the distance between NYC and Eastern Long Island is much greater than it may appear on paper ]</p>

<p>It will be interesting to see how all of this plays out.</p>

[ElderCookies]

<p>HOLY ****. This is awful. The glut of lawyers is already insane, and this is close to the most glut effected markets. This is just a way to con some poor smucks out of money, because law schools are huge money makers. I really hope that the SUNY cost is that low, but do not count on it.</p>

<p>Please for the sake of your future do not attend a third tier toliet. PLEASE. It is just an awful idea.</p>

[marny1]

<p>I"m very familiar with upstate NY. Having spent 4 years in Oswego- a kid at Cortland and a newly minted Cornell Grad (who just got a job with Health Insurance-Hooray!!- looks like law school may wait another year or two for her.)–
I stand by my statement Re: getting faculty to Binghamton. </p>

<p>kids in my Nassau District do not love Bing, though those that do attend are pretty satisifed with their experience. I know my kid didn’t even apply there as Albany seemed preferable to her. We usually get more kids applying to Albany and Buffalo than Binghamton. For whatever reason, Binghamton lacks the charm of some of the other upstate towns in the Finger Lake/Central NY area.</p>

<p>elder-- SUNY Buffalo tuition is that low. You can check the website out. And Buffalo is pretty highly rated too. (I think within top 100 law schools).
I think SUNY Buff. deserves alot of consideration for those that do not get accepted to a top tier law school or where finances is a real issue.</p>

[runnersmom]

<p>As a long ago graduate of SUNY Buffalo Law School, I have to agree wholeheartedly with marny1. If for whatever reason (financial, lack of acceptances to T-14 type law schools) you choose to go to SUNY, know that unless you can be amongst the top in your class, it’s very difficult to break into what is now called “biglaw” from a school like Buffalo. What is does provide is a terrific, low cost legal education that will position you very well for a job at many fine upstate New York firms or smaller, less known NY metro firms. It’s just that those firms are more familiar with Buffalo graduates and are more inclined to hire them. Mind you, this is not based on statistical evidence I am privy to, but on many years of watching upstate friends hire for their firms. When I graduated an eternity ago a very small % of my class went to NY/LA/DC directly out of school.</p>

[Greybeard]

<p>Binghamton hasn’t had any issues attracting faculty to its other programs. It’s bigger than Ithaca, within a few hours drive of Philadelphia and New York, but with a much lower cost of living. Charm’s in the eye of the beholder, but Binghamton is not without its charms, in my view. The area has a lot of natural beauty, as well.</p>

<p>My sixth-grade teacher predicted to me in 1969 that Binghamton would have a law school by the time I was old enough to go there. I guess his prediction was off by a good 30 years.</p>

[sallyawp]

<p>I don’t think there is any harm in more law schools, public and private, opening their doors to students. As I often say, though, students applying to these law schools (like any others) have to go in with their eyes open to the costs of attendance, the opportunities for learning and growth within that particular law school, what it really means on a monthly basis to have to pay off student loans and what their employment prospects will be post-graduation. </p>

<p>The job market for lawyers is competitive, whether you are looking for a job in biglaw or a public interest job (in fact, it always seemed to me that the public interest jobs were harder to find with a less clearly defined hiring process than the biglaw firms). A lot of folks graduate from law school every year and employers have their pick of them.</p>

[runnersmom]

<p>Pertinent to this conversation I got a letter from the new Dean of UB law today. He outlined all he plans to do to improve the school’s ratings to top 50 (dropped this year from 70’s to 100) and he is imploring graduates to lobby the legislature to NOT fund/open new law schools in NYS. Interesting.</p>

[Neonzeus]

<p>Runnersmom - UB law is in my kid’s top-3 (truly great value, visited the school and had an opportunity to meet the Dean. Brother is a student at SUNY-B)! Iit would make my life easier to have two kids at the same University. NY has so many law schools already that the Placement Offices really have to struggle…it seems that the educational dollars being spent on establshing an entirely new school might be better spent on enhancing current schools or perhaps establishing satellite campuses for Year 1 basic classes, for ex.</p>

[marny1]

<p>Runnersmom–I love coincidences like this. BTW, I know a number of UB Law grads (probably graduated in the mid 1970’s) who do work in NYC. I understand UB Law currently has a semester “Intern” program in NYC, so I do believe the school will continue to have solid ties with NYC organizations.</p>

<p>I guess it would be natural for UB Law not to want further competition with other SUNY law schools (or other low cost law schools), as these same students would have more options to choose from and may want to be closer to the NYC area. IMO, if Stony Brook does open up a law school, it will become a very popular option for law students.</p>

[runnersmom]

<p>Marny, I’m not familiar with the intern program…I graduated in '81. However, back in the old days, the kids who came to NYC to practice fell into 3 camps. One group was top of the class, Law Review etc. and courted by all the same top firms as similar grads of other law schools, second were those just below the top who interviewed with and were employed by smaller, less national/international firms (the word boutique did not exist wrt law firms in those days!) and last was the group originally from the NY metro area who were returning to this area with or without a job. My understanding from friends, colleagues and people in the UB Law administration is that for a period of time, say mid 90’s to recently, it was harder to place UB grads in groups 1 & 2. I know that they are making a concerted effort to become a less regional school and I think that will help with placement outside of the upstate area. I was the only graduate my year at my firm, and I could still name the classmates who went to firms anyone outside of NY had heard of. In those years, and I suspect since as well, UB had good placement with Justice (all divisions), and the DAs office.</p>

[sallyawp]

<p>From the National Law Journal:</p>

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Two Law Schools Get Provisional OK From ABA

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Two North Carolina law schools have received provisional approval from the American Bar Association, raising to an even 200 the number of ABA-approved law schools nationwide. </p>

<p>Both schools, Elon University School of Law in Greensboro and Charlotte School of Law in Charlotte, will graduate their first class next May. </p>

<p>Provisional approval is granted after the school has demonstrated substantial compliance with ABA standards, said Arizona Chief Justice Ruth V. McGregor, chair of the American Bar Association Section of Legal Education and Admissions to the Bar.

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Under ABA rules the two schools will remain provisionally-approved status at least three years but must achieve full approval within five years.

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