New Podcast "Serial"

@treemaven - there is a huge amount of legal/logical sleight of hand going on in that blog post at viewfromll2.com – to start with, the statement, “The “Leakin Park calls” that Urick’s case was so dependent upon do not even show by a preponderance of the evidence that the cellphone was in Leakin Park at 7:15 pm that night, let alone show it beyond a reasonable doubt.” is completely misrepresenting the prosecution’s case and the law.

Urick did not have to prove that the cell phone was in Leakin Park that night, let alone prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. A prosecutor does not have to prove every piece of evidence in a case beyond a reasonable doubt - the prosecutor has to prove the legal elements of the case (essentially that Hae was murdered and that Adnan was the one who killed her), beyond a reasonable doubt, and to do that he builds a case based on cumulative consideration of all the evidence. But no one piece of evidence needs to stand on its own – the jury could very easily have decided that the cell phone evidence was too complicated or too iffy and disregarded it, and still convicted.

Again, in this case, the linchpin of the prosecutions case was the direct witness (accomplice) testimony.

I’d add that I doubt that the prosecutor ever even claimed that there was evidence to prove that the cell phone was in Leakin Park… all it could ever have shown is that the phone was near Leakin Park – but that’s fine as a piece of circumstantial evidence to be considered along with all the other evidence.

Finally-- a point that a lot of people seem to miss – the absence of cell phone ping evidence at or near Leakin Park doesn’t prove that the possessor of the cell phone was not at Leakin Park – all that the phone evidence can show conclusively is that the cell phone user was not in the vicinity of Leakin Park at the specific times that outgoing calls were made which pinged cell towers that were in other, more distant location. It’s entirely possible that the burial could have taken place at a different time, when no cell phone calls were made.

So again, those cell phone records are a relatively minor piece of evidence, introduced probably both to provide a small piece of corroboration, and also to provide some sort of reckoning as to time line, given that it was fairly obvious that Jay’s recollection of specific times was way off. (Understandable, given that he wasn’t interviewed until about 6 weeks after the murder, and that he had been using drugs that day, so unlikely to have an accurate perception as to passage of time.) I think that Urick’s claim that the cell records were corroborating Jay’s time line are equally disingenuous-- but again, the time line isn’t the point. It doesn’t matter whether Jay can remember the times accurately – it matters that the events he described took place. The cell records provide some indication that Adnan - or whoever had his cell phone at that point- was in the general area of Leakin Park at some time that evening – that’s all.

The other thing that I find odd about the viewfromll2.com blog post is the focus on the calls around the time track practice ended -and the claim that “Urick discredited Adnan’s alibi based on a false representation to the jury. Because the 5:14 pm call was not Adnan checking voicemail,…” — but Adnan did not testify at trial, so there was no “alibi” evidence from that time frame to discredit – and Jay’s testimony was that he had taken Adnan back to school for track practice and picked him up again later – so whether or not Adnan had actually attended track practice was not in any way exculpatory.

@calmom, I know. I wasn’t trying to say the jury’s decision is not binding or somehow not legal. I know it is. Juries do sometimes make mistakes however, that’s a documented fact.

Keep bootstrapping Jay’s claims with questionable ‘corroborating’ cell phone records, Calmom, while totally pooh-poohing any that raise doubts to that corroborating nature. :wink:

You are happy to take the cell phone records as pertinent and reliable when they ‘support’ Jay’s/detectives’ story board, but very quick to dismiss them as irrelevant and unreliable when they discredit or raise questions about Jay’s storyline.

For me, either ALL the calls correlate to Jay’s or Adnan’s claims of where Jay or Adnan were, doing what, when, or the cell phone records tell nothing. I don’t think picking and choosing only those you can squish into an arbitrary time line is appropriate—which is what it appears the detectives did while coaxing/coaching Jay’s testimony.

The analysis by the viewfromLL2.com of the records with first Jay’s, then Adnan’s claimed movements is rather compelling—certainly it raises reasonable doubt. If one keeps close track of whose friends are called when and the records are looked at once to follow just Jay around based upon his various versions and then again flowing Adnan around based upon his claims (school grounds/library, track, Cathy’s, mosque, home----no, he didn’t testify but he did give statements and his witnesses), the phone records SHOULD line up pretty much with one or the other . OR perhaps they can corroborate Jay’s claimed movements AND show Adnan’s absence during his claimed time at track and mosque. (See most the recent blog analysis along with her earlier discussion of cell phone log and Jay’s multiple statements).

As for the 5:15 pm call, the prosecutor used that to challenge a witness about her recollection of a call he said she made. He told her that call was Adnan checking a voice mail message the witness had left and thus, Adnan was not at track practice and had his phone back. According to the phone company’s key, however, the prosecutor misspoke (at best) because that call was not a VM being left, but rather a VM being recorded.

As far as giving Jay passes for being addled by drugs and thus not exact on times and memories, why aren’t you willing to give Adnan the same pass for that evening when he was so high and addled when the detective called him? I can easily buy that a honor-roll student athlete who is high and has weed in his car would be a bit stressed that a detective wants to talk to him. He’d have a lot to lose if busted. At that point, anyone not involved in Hae’s death didn’t know she’d disappeared; they just knew she wasn’t where she was suppose to be. Seems only Don (and Jay) were thinking they needed an alibi at that point.

Once more, I am not viewing this in terms of ‘can the jury’s verdict be upheld with the evidence presented at trial’ but rather a de novo review of whether all the information now known provides reasonable doubt.

IF Adnan is possibly innocent, then I think it behooves us to review the evidence with an open-mind and curious mind.

Yes, but juries make decisions based on the evidence that is before them – not on what is broadcast by a journalist 15 years later, at a time when key witnesses refuse to talk to the journalist. There was a lot that was presented in a very slanted way in the podcast --for example, the discussion of Asia as an “alibi” witness when her statements had been equivocal and in any event didn’t cover the relevant time line. (Asia was an “alibi” only under the prosecution’s time line of about the 2:36 call – but the 3:15 pm call is far more likely the pick-up call.)

I think you could pick any person at random who was convicted of a crime, go over their trial transcripts and find reasons to re-argue or dispute bits and pieces of evidence. Generally when there is a trial, a lot of the evidence is contested – we’ve got an adversary system and that’s what it looks like. In every case.

There is no such thing as a perfect, error-free trial. Lawyers are human beings, they make mistakes in every case. Trial lawyers work in a very intense, fast-paced environment. Witnesses say unexpected things, the lawyers have to make snap decisions as to whether or not to object to a question or to ask a particular follow up question, they phrase some questions badly or miss an opportunity on cross-examination, or mistakenly ask a question or elicit an answer that opens up the door for the other side to introduce more damaging evidence. That doesn’t make Adnan’s case unusual --it makes him typical. Except that that Adnan has had better legal representation over the years than most – most of his fellow prisoners probably were represented by public defenders with far less resources than Adnan’s many lawyers had.

I think the problem is that in this case, Adnan’s friend Rabia sold Sarah Koenig on the idea that there was something particularly unusual in this case – and to my eyes, with real-world experience both as a trial and appellate lawyer – there just isn’t anything special. You’ve been given selected highlights, not the whole trial. You haven’t’ heard Jay’s 5-day long testimony - you didn’t hear the actual testimony of the cell tower experts or the other witnesses.

So again – you can have your opinion – but I have yet to hear anything that would suggest that this jury came to a decision that wasn’t driven by the evidence that they had, or that there is any other plausible suspect or theory as to what happened to Hae after school let out on January 13.

Just finished my listening binge.

I have a friend who is an attorney and his job is handling appeals of death penalty cases. Maybe notelling knows him. (I am not going to disclose his name). :slight_smile:

I felt like Sarah really wanted to find the guilty decision incorrect. I realize we aren’t getting the full story.

Policemen did come to my house once. This did not stir my memory. I don’t remember anything else that happened that day.

Having said this, I have no idea what happened in this case. I am leaning slightly towards the idea that Adnan was guilty. As the woman who worked with Sarah said, there is too much bad luck. I can be persuaded. :slight_smile:

Great show.

@treemaven – my point is that Jay’s testimony was sufficient to convict without the cell phone evidence.

There was no legal requirement that his testimony be corroborated with cell phone pings, or with any other particular documentary or physical evidence. That is something that the podcast producers chose to focus attention on-- but Adnan’s trial went on for 6 weeks, Jay testified for 5 days-- it’s likely that at trial the cell phone stuff was only a very tiny part of the case presented.

The prosecution presented testimony of an expert on the calls, and the defense apparently presented their own expert, as well as having the opportunity to cross-examine the prosecution evidence. Even with only a rudimentary understanding of the technology, a defense lawyer would have known to establish that the pings could not establish a location with certainty, but would cover a very broad geographic range-- and to use the expert to establish the farthest boundaries-- (example question: “could the ping come from a phone that was 3 blocks away? Half a mile away? A mile away? Two miles away?” ) and then relate that question to a map. The podcast didn’t give us the cross-examination, but I find it inconceivable that those sort of questions would not have been asked – and so the jury probably knew that the cell phone evidence was far from certain.

The stuff cited about the questioning of the witness about the 5:15 pm call was taken from the first trial - the one that ended in a mistrial. The jury that convicted Adnan would not have heard that – that’s just another example of the sleight of hand and misdirection that particular blogger uses repeatedly. (That’s why I have no respect for that particular blogger and would not consider that a credible source). In any case – that particular time wasn’t relevant to the case because nothing significant to the timeline of events happened within that time frame. Hae disappeared prior to 5:15 – a police officer called and spoke to Adnan on his cell phone at around 6:24pm – so we know that Adnan has his phone as of that time - and the Leakin Park pings are later. So what does it matter whether Adnan had his phone at 5:15 or later? How is a mistake made by a prosecutor in reading a call log in any way impact the core issues of the case?

I’m not doing that. But if I were – how can you have a “de novo review” where you only hear from selected defense witnesses, as to random pieces of evidence, including hearsay and second hand reports?

Calmom, you are wedded to only what evidence as submitted at second trial. That’s your viewpoint. Fine, obviously that jury found that evidence sufficient.

I am not wedded to only that information. I find it more intersting to attempt a reconciliation of all the information currently available. I guess I’d rather not leave puzzle pieces on the table that can be fitted into the whole picture.

You and I are playing with a different total number of puzzle pieces. Yours is much smaller picture, it appears. And that limited focus certainly worked for the prosecutor.

Your approach, however, pretty much results in a ‘throw away the key’. Do you not agree, however, that the various Innocence Projects have found some innocents serving long sentences and/or that there have been occasions where people have been wrongly convicted of heinous crimes—only to finally be freed long after all regular appeals have been exhausted?

In those cases, it took someone with a curious and open mind with dogged determination to fit all the puzzle pieces on the table together to get justice. If everyone refused to review anything but what the jury considered, those people would still be in jail.

As for the viewfromLL2.com blogger, you are entitled to your disregard, as I am entitled to my disbelief regarding Jay’s credibility. (Have you read the transcripts of statements–the ones that they recorded? Or the appellate briefs?)

@treemaven – I have in my career worked tirelessly to help people in prison overturn their convictions, or to assist other attorneys do the same – I was the director of the post-conviction relief project at my law school – but the person needs to have a CASE. There is not one thing that I heard on Serial that would get Adnan’s conviction reversed-- unless the innocence project gets lucky with their long-shot DNA test.

Adnan has been continually represented by lawyers. There has been a fully litigated appeal and currently pending post-appellate collateral attack. It seems that the only potentially viable argument the lawyers have come up is based on Adnan’s claim that the lawyer should have gotten a plea deal for him. There is nothing that was broadcast online that the appellate lawyers don’t have.

I’d be perfectly happy to add a new piece of the puzzle to the picture, if SK had come up with one, but she didn’t. She led with teasers that didn’t bear up under scrutiny.

Again: Jay’s credibility was for the jury to decide. If there had been no cell phone evidence at all, it probably wouldn’t have impacted the verdict – the jury came back in 2 hours, they probably weren’t looking at phone records. But they heard witnesses testify that they overheard Adnan ask Hae for a ride after school; they heard from a cop who talked to Adnan that evening and said that Adnan admitted having asked for the ride; they had found a letter in Adnan’s house from Hae, discussing an earlier effort to break it off with him, with the words “I am going to kill” written on the back, apparently by Adnan; they had a witness who had never met Adnan previously who testified that Jay brought Adnan to her house and that he was acting strangely and got upset over the prospect of talking to a police officer about Hae’s disappearance. and probably a whole lot of other stuff that we didn’t hear about or that I don’t remember-- and they had Jay’s testimony. He was on the witness stand for 5 days, and probably most of that was cross-examination. Maybe that was a tactical error from Jay’s attorney --an unsuccessful cross-examination just gives the witness an opportunity to reiterate key points and that’s just reinforces them in the jurors’ minds. But bottom line, 12 people who heard him talk and watched his demeanor on the witness stand over a substantial period of time believed him.

Jay is alive. If by some miracle Adnan won a new trial and was re-tried, Jay would still be there to testify. As would many other witnesses. I’d think that if anything, husband & father Jay would come off as more credible than teenage drug dealer Jay did.

I personally have no opinion as to his credibility because I haven’t heard from him.

But the problem is that I haven’t heard of a plausible motivation for Jay to lie or a plausible alternative explanation as to what happened to Hae.

The problem with your jigsaw analogy is that you can’t put together a picture from the random pieces you have. You can’t put together the whole puzzle either – because you’ve only been given a handful of pieces from a 1000-piece puzzle --so you in a position to know what happened either.

You say you disbelieve Jay: what do you think really happened to Hae?

http://jezebel.com/maryland-court-of-special-appeals-to-consider-adnan-sye-1679324917

That article refers to the case in which this court order was issued:
http://www.mdcourts.gov/cosappeals/pdfs/syed/cosaorder.pdf

(The court seems to be interested in Adnan’s claim that his lawyer failed him by not pursuing his desire to get a plea deal).

More info here: http://www.mdcourts.gov/media/

So… Tomorrow is the 14th. We should hear something?

No, tomorrow is the deadline for the prosecution to file its written response. Maybe the Maryland court will also post that on the media page of its web site as it has with other selected documents - if so, you will find out whether the prosecution thinks that Adnan’s conviction should be overturned because his lawyer didn’t engage in aggressive plea bargaining on his behalf. (I have a pretty good idea what they are going to say.).

Then sometime after that - could be weeks, could be months – the Maryland court will issue an order saying whether or not they are going to allow Adnan’s appeal to proceed. (As to the time frame – note that the lawyers filed the application for leave to appeal in January 2014, and the court issued its order directing a response for the prosecution in September, 9 months later ).

Ok. Thanks.

If you are interested in the legal aspects --you might find it useful to read this court opinion:
http://www.mdcourts.gov/cosappeals/pdfs/syed/baltcityccmemorandumopinion.pdf

This is the opinion issues by the Baltimore court on Adnan’s petition for post-conviction relief. It’s pretty straightforward, has a very good summary of the legal standard that applies to the claims, and makes it pretty clear that the issues raised on Serial were already raised and argued by the appellate lawyers in court hearings in October 2012. I hadn’t read this before, but it pretty much mirrors my reasons for skepticism. It is my impression that the October 2012 hearings (held on 2 separate days) would have included an opportunity for counsel to present witnesses to support their claims --and if Asia didn’t testify at that point, that’s pretty much the legal death of the Asia claim. (I get that impression from the court’s statement “Additionally, Petitioner has no produced any of the eighty potential alibi witnesses to testify at the post-conviction hearing.” - at p. 9 – I take that to mean that under Maryland procedure, a “post-conviction hearing” is an evidentiary hearing at which witnesses are allowed to testify.)

The current action in the appellate courts is essentially an appeal from that Baltimore judge’s opinion.

Wow, Adnan threw everything but the kitchen sink into that appeal. And was comprehensively rejected on all counts.

I hadn’t previously realized that during Jay’s five days of cross-examination the defense brought up his drug history, his lies to the police and his plea deal. So the jury knew about those things and still convicted Adnan.

Calmom, the several mentions of the prong of the Strickland test that require the appellant to prove facts sound like an evidentiary hearing to me, too. I assume the evidence presented is evidence about the alleged deficiency of the trial, rather than evidence about the underlying crime.

Yes, but to show that at the evidentiary hearing it would also be important to show what the non-testifying witness would have testified to. Ordinarily that would be through presentation of testimony or an affidavit – so the basic process would be to bring on the alibi witnesses to testify as to what they could have offered and the circumstances as to why they didn’t testify.

I’ve done those kind of hearings, going back to law school. I used to work for a lawyer who specialized in that sort of stuff, and I remember one hearing that lasted several weeks – we left no stone unturned. If the claim is that the lawyer was ineffective because the lawyer didn’t offer X, then it is absolutely essential that whatever evidence was claimed to be overlooked be produced at the post-conviction hearing – that’s part of the process of convincing the hearing judge that the evidence would have resulted in a different verdict and the attorney could not have had a valid strategic reason for withholding it.

So while in theory the focus of the hearing is on the attorney’s errors, in practice the hearing really does entail a retrial of the case, or at least the defense case that is at issue.

Calmom, That’s a good link. Thanks.

Jay is a little shady which makes this case a little troublesome.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/jarettwieselman/serial-jay-wilds-adnan-syed-interview#.lc90x6GmWk

Obviously the lawyer is not neutral and was the person that contacted Sarah.

Now Jay is talking about burying the body at midnight. When does a change in testimony warrant a new trial?

I don’t know if the young woman who was murdered was a drug user. I can’t remember. If so, I don’t know why Adnan’s lawyer didn’t try to pin the murder on Jay. Hae didn’t pay up so Jay killed her. Something like that. I know. I am really going off the rails.

Could Jay have been protecting somebody else?

Adnan just doesn’t have an alibi. :slight_smile:

Re post #274 - CF, you might also want to read the original 2003 appellate opinion – it’s 57 pages long and a little harder to wade through --but it has a lot of specific details about the trial & Jay’s cross-examination.

It’s been broken up into 2 files:

http://www.mdcourts.gov/cosappeals/pdfs/syed/cosaopinionpart1.pdf
http://www.mdcourts.gov/cosappeals/pdfs/syed/cosaopinionpart2.pdf

That’s a change related to a collateral issue, made by a witness who was known to be under the influence of drugs the night in question, fifteen years later— so it would be pretty much insignificant. And he didn’t say in the recent interview that it was “at midnight” --he said it was “closer to” midnight. So that’s how he remembers it --but that’s just pretty normal drift in human memory. It was dark and it was scary… so I definitely can see how it would get later and darker in his mind every time he has thought about it over the years

By collateral I mean it really doesn’t change anything the central fact that Jay was a witness to Adnan’s disposing of the body. Maybe Jay lied about the time - maybe he was mistaken. But if the burial happened at midnight - or if the body was put in a freezer and the burial took place 2 weeks later – it still wouldn’t make Adnan innocent.

The only way a change in testimony would give rise to a new trial would be a full recantation – if he said that the whole thing had been fabricated and that he never saw the body, didn’t help bury it, and that Adnan had never told him that he killed Hae. (And even that would’t guarantee Adnan’s release – courts are rightfully suspicious of recanted testimony years after the fact. Generally they want to see something pretty strong to confirm the reliability of the recantation)

There was no evidence that Hae was a drug user, so that doesn’t fly. Hae had a new, older boyfriend that she had started dating about 2 weeks before her disappearance. She was at the boyfriend’s home very late the night before. Adnan tried to call her several times and apparently reached her after midnight - there was brief phone conversation. She and Adnan were both in school the next day and had classes together. Hae was on campus and interviewed that day by a local public access t.v. station. School let out at about 2:15. Adnan was on campus at that time. Hae was supposed to pick up her cousin from preschool that afternoon, and should have arrived by 3:15, but she never showed up – so it seems pretty clear that Hae was intercepted sometime before then.

There’s no evidence that Jay had any motive to harm Hae and it certainly doesn’t seem like he had the opportunity – by Adnan’s account, Hae & Adnan are at the school campus at the time that school lets out; Hae has a car; and Jay is off somewhere else with Adnan’s borrowed car and cell phone, not due to return into after Adnan gets out of track practice.

I mean, there’s no “blame Jay” theory that makes any sense. If he killed Hae, he would have needed an accomplice to manage the car thing -he can’t be driving Hae’s car and Adnan’s simultaneously.