New Podcast "Serial"

Parent Cafe
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<p>But what does the prosecution care if there is incriminatory evidence against Adnan – he’s already been convicted. He isn’t going to get a retrial based on DNA unless the evidence is exculpatory.</p>

<p>The reason that I think Hae might have spent the night with Don is that she wanted him to call the school the next morning and pretend to be some sort of authority so that she could get an excused absence and spend the day with him- to me, that sounds like an idea that a teenage girl in the thralls of a new romance might come up with either very late at night or very early in the morning. </p>

<p>Call log is here: <a href=“Cell Phone Call Log”>Cell Phone Call Log - Serial;
Adnan called Hae at 11:27 pm the night before (2 seconds), then at 12:01 am (2 seconds), then at 12:45 am (1:24 duration). I assume that the 2 second calls went to voice mail, so it looks like Adnan was trying to reach her that night. After the brief call at 12:45 am, the next call is 10 hours later, to Jay at 10:45am. </p>

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<p>Re the DNA: yes, Calmom, that’s part of the point I’m trying to make … If Adnan’s DNA is under her fingernails, we will never find out. Defense won’t tell us, and because in that case the defense wouldn’t have grounds to reopen the case, the prosecution would not have reason to test the DNA. So we will only find out results in the very unlikely event that it really is the serial killer. So I’m not on pins and needles awaiting the results. </p>

<p>Having Adnan’s DNA on her body would be significant, and that is probably why his own lawyer didn’t have it tested. Right?</p>

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<p>Hard to say, the science of DNA has changed a lot over the years – here’s a report written in 1999 which is a good way to get a sense of where the science stood then: <a href=“https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/177626.pdf”>https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/177626.pdf&lt;/a&gt; – and here’s a timeline you can mouse over: <a href=“sealund.com”>sealund.com;

<p>The point is that the specific tests that are taken for granted now might not have been widely available in 1999 – keep in mind that it would also probably be several years before a new technique was widely adopted or available – so it could be that there seemed to be insufficient samples for testing. </p>

<p>There wouldn’t necessarily be DNA under her fingernails anyway. Her killer could have grabbed her from behind – and if the killer was wearing thick winter clothing, she could have been flailing around like mad but never been able to make contact with anyone’s skin. </p>

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<p>It’s been interesting to read some of the commentary on not only the final episode but the series as a whole. These two, I thought were particularly good.</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.newyorker.com/culture/cultural-comment/serial-really-taught-us”>http://www.newyorker.com/culture/cultural-comment/serial-really-taught-us&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p><a href=“I Started Serial, But It Didn't End the Way I Had Hoped | Time”>http://time.com/3641263/serial-adnan-sarah-koenig-murder/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>Interesting story about “what now” …
<a href=“The Innocence Project talks Adnan Syed's case | Time”>http://time.com/3639655/serial-innocence-project-deirdre-enright/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>Another commentary worth consideration: <a href=“http://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2014/12/17/serial-missed-its-chance-to-show-how-unfair-the-criminal-justice-system-really-is/”>http://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2014/12/17/serial-missed-its-chance-to-show-how-unfair-the-criminal-justice-system-really-is/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>I didn’t get a chance to come back here and answer the question asked of me a couple pages back, i.e., what were my daughter and my thoughts, until now. </p>

<p>But in a nutshell, they were/are these: We felt Jay was the only one who knew anything and that it wasn’t enough to convict Adnan. My problem with the prosecution was that it was built entirely on what Jay said—and what Jay ‘said’ was the result of hours long, unrecorded interviews. The recorded statements were Jay’s answers to leading questions by the detectives, so the ‘facts’ stated were stated by the detectives with Jay agreeing. </p>

<p>Jay’s ‘facts’ were corroborated by Jen—but only after she and Jay first met to get their stories straight. She was interviewed first, then the police went to Jay. </p>

<p>The cell phone calls were only used by the prosecution when they matched an element in Jay’s story board, but ignored when they didn’t. Jay’s story board had some fluidity, but eventually the prosecution settled in on a ‘clean’ narrative at trial----one they could ‘sell’, including using an ‘honor killing’ as motive for an ethnic Pakistani young male----nevermind that Adnan was an American teenager, born and steeped in American teenage culture. (Anyone here have a first generation American teenager?) The prosecution misstated facts and indulged in fear-mongering at the bail hearing and thereafter.</p>

<p>Jay’s plea agreement was very convenient, especially when he is provided pro bono counsel by the prosecutor. Very shady goings on there. Many innocent people are maneuvered into taking pleas rather than rolling the dice and incurring major expense and long prison sentences. Why would Jay be any more immune to enticement to agree to name Adnan in exchange for a suspended sentence and no attorney fees? </p>

<p>Some of the jury members appear to have believed the defense had the burden of proving innocence, rather than the prosecution had the burden of proving guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. It is very difficult to prove a negative.</p>

<p>There was physical evidence found on Hae’s body and at the location where her body was found, but none of it was tested or discussed at trial. Prosecution liked their story board and it saved budget dollars . . . . </p>

<p>There were potential alibi witnesses for Adnan that were not found prior to trial. Why didn’t defense counsel check on these. </p>

<p>There appear to be issues of ineffective defense counsel. His attorney may have been affected by her illnesses. </p>

<p>The entire timeline may be totally wrong, including when Hae actually died,
which means go back to START and re-group. </p>

<p>In short, I think the prosecution was looking for a ‘win’ and not really interested in determining the truth. Jay handed them Adnan and they worked to get all the pegs in the holes, disregarding any that didn’t fit or were troublesome.</p>

<p>I don’t believe that just because a person is arrested and put on trial that they are always guilty. Seen too much to believe that. Trials are not suppose to be rubber stamping of police arrests. </p>

<p>This jury came back with a guilty verdict in just 2 hours following a 6 week trial. That’s about enough time to find seats in the jury deliberation R oom, elect a foreman, and take an initial vote. Not much discussion or evaluation time for all the testimony and evidence. </p>

<p>Neither daughter nor I believe Adnan should have been convicted on the state’s evidence presented.</p>

<p>It’s not my place to say whether he is innocent, but I do believe there was—and is—way more than just reasonable doubt there. </p>

<p>I will say that I am an attorney (primarily personal injury, products liability, and medical malpractice, but not criminal) and daughter is a first year law student (and full disclosure, yes, passionately involved in Innocent Project at her school).</p>

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<p>And while Jay met with Jen to get their stories straight, he and Adnan never met to get their stories straight. . . . </p>

<p>Fifteen years is a loooonnnnng time to never slip with a detail or admit some involvement in an unguarded moment. Jay, the casual pot-smoking acquaintance was the only one who said Adnan was that upset ongoing over the breakup. None of Adnan’s close running buddies and group had any indication he was so upset and felt so ‘besmirched’. Really?</p>

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<p>Making sure everyone has seen these …</p>

<p><a href=“'SNL' Investigates The Story Of Christmas With A 'Serial' Parody | HuffPost Entertainment”>HuffPost - Breaking News, U.S. and World News | HuffPost;

<p><a href=“http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/6ab2d45a77/the-last-episode-of-serial”>http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/6ab2d45a77/the-last-episode-of-serial&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>Just finished this podcast. It is simply amazing to me that law enforcement quickly settled on Adnan as their suspect and took the word of a drug dealer, who admittedly ditched clothes and tools with physical evidence from the crime scene that had been in his possession, and set him as their star witness.</p>

<p>DNA evidence was very new in the 1990s…Barry Scheck, who later founded the Innocence Project, was instrumental in making DNA evidence against OJ Simpson seem unreliable to jurors just 20 years ago.</p>

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<p>The use of DNA evidence may have become more well-known during the O.J.Simpson trial but it had been in use for close to ten years by then. Scheck and Peter Neufeld had been using it for two or three years prior to their involvement in Simpson’s trial (the Innocence Project had already been established by then).</p>

<p>In any case, by 1999 it was commonly used in murder investigations and there’s no excuse for the Baltimore police and prosecutor’s office not having any testing done.</p>

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<p>Just finished also. The only really solid evidence seems to me to be that Jay knew where Hae’s car was. That seems to me to rule out any random third-person, like the just-released from jail person.</p>

<p>Overall I liked the series, but I do wish they had spent more time on the legal issues and less time on the cell-phone pings. </p>

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<p>@alwaysamom - you’re right as for some reason I thought the Innocence Project, which does such great work, postdated the OJ trial. I probably thought that Scheck started it to atone! </p>

<p>Totally agree that there is no excuse for articles from the crime site and victim not to have been tested in 1999. Koenig says it seems like the police didn’t rush to judgment, but the sum of the show seems to say otherwise. </p>

<p>@MathildaMae it seems to me that Jay was intimately involved. He knew where the car was, he disposed of clothes and tools from the crime scene, he was involved with drug dealing. An anonymous call to the cops said “look at the boyfriend” - where did that come from hmm? I can’t for the life of me figure out why did they didn’t fit up Jay for the crime rather than Adnan.</p>

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<p>

I’ve just listened to the 2nd & 3rd episodes today.
From the first, I’ve had a sense that Adnan is guilty.</p>

<p>First is because he indicates that he was much more tied to Hae than he admits to.
While he professes to be a " player", that means nothing.
He is compartmentalizing. He shows he is incredibly aware of Haes movements, to the point where he is showing up at gatherings which are girls only, to which he was not invited, more than once.
The fact that Hae does not mention it in her diary means nothing.
She likely does not even want to admit to herself, if she is bothered by his possessive behavior, because then she would have to do something about it, which she is not ready to do.
He also hides that he is furious at his need for his sexual relationship with Hae, which shamed him in front of his peers when his parents showed up at the prom.
All this for a girl who would never be approved of by his parents, one whom he only started dating because a friend suggested they would make an attractive couple.
It is plausible that a teenager ( or anyone really, but especially a teen boy), could be emotionally tied to someone, while having physical relations with others. If he had begun an emotional relationship with ONE other young woman, it would be more believable that he did not kill his ex girlfriend, but he began MULTIPLE relationships- which are assumed to be sexual, yet he was not engaged with any of them on the same level that he had been with Hae.
He told the police interviewer that he asked Hae for a ride, then later says he misremembered?
It is plausible that he became increasingly angry over her behavior.
Breaking up with him to start dating a white ołder man.
Still keepng him on a leash by giving him gifts.
His attempts to call her just to give her his cell #, when he could have given it to her at school ( or not at all).
Not making ANY attempts to call or text her after her disappearance.</p>

<p>It’s possible that later podcasts will give me new information that will make me doubt this conclusion.
But the sound quality of some of the conversations are so bad that I don’t know if I will listen to the end.
I am curious if Adnan had ever been given a lie detector test, and why he does not seem to have been hypnotized in an effort to recall his movements.</p>

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<p>EK4, you state a lot of assumptions and conjecture, which seems to be the problem with the case and exactly what the prosecution did. I’m not saying Adnan didn’t commit the murder, I just dislike all the character references to try to paint the picture. I never did like gossip. </p>

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<p>I think knowledge of human behavior is helpful.</p>

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<p>Not sure about other’s knowledge of teen behavior, but mine doesn’t include many (actually any) 17-yr old young teens killing their ‘first love’, especially a well-liked, well-adjusted teen ? There is NO evidence that he was anything different than any other first-generation westernized teen living with his ‘old country’ parents? As was Hae . . . </p>

<p>My “knowledge of [teenage] human behavior” doesn’t jive with the ‘story’ and ‘motive’ that was sold—without more real evidence. Something more than Jay agreeing with the statements of ‘facts’ the detectives fed him in his recorded statement. Jay had a lot to lose by not going along with the detectives----and much to gain by saying what the detectives wanted to hear. </p>

<p>Curiously, only Jay, Adnan’s occasional pot-smoking buddy (but not a close running buddy) knew of Adnan’s alleged murderous rage about the break-up. Again, doesn’t exactly jive with my “knowledge of human behavior”, especially teenagers. </p>

<p>And one must keep true to the underlying principle of our criminal justice system: A person is innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt and the burden is on the State to remove all reasonable doubt. </p>

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<p>We have to think about it the other way around. Hae is dead; someone killed her. A jealous former boyfriend is going to be, a priori, a good suspect. Jay is obviously involved, because he knew where the car was. Either Jay did it (why?) or Adnan did it. This serial rapist/killer story is just a fantasy-- how would the serial killer be working with Jay? </p>

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<p>I agree Cardinal Fang.
Although the motives seem shaky -I just don’t understand how it could be anyone other than Jay or Adnan</p>

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<p>I have never understood why Jay didn’t get SOMETHING and SOME jail time. He just doesn’t seem or smell “clean” to me and I think he is MUCH more involved than he let on. Plea deals, especially in a murder case, don’t HAVE to let the person who testifies for the prosecution get a completely “free ride.”</p>

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<p>I think knowledge of human behavior can be helpful, but we can’t assume certain behavior/ideas/thoughts/motives on someone else based on what we think. Shouldn’t justice be based on fact?</p>