<p>Sorry Jym, I thought your use of quotation marks was to cast doubt on whether CCW holders are truly law-abiding. I guess you won’t mind answering the original question I asked in #80 then, if the discussion should be about the control of location of guns. </p>
<p>Where do you believe guns should be allowed and why should their legal possession be restricted to that location? By the way, I’m not a CCW holder, or a gun owner, yet.</p>
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<p>So then you would be in favor of implementing regulations that banned carrying firearms in any situation other than those involved with those many other reasons? Hunting and gun clubs being prominent exceptions?</p>
<p>Or was this just another random diversion from the thrust of the argument?</p>
<p>I won’t speak for hop, but while guns indeed have MANY uses, I am against ANY restraint of it’s use by law abiding and responsible people. I have no problem with a back ground check. I have no problem with the age to be that of a legal adult. I have no problem with certain similar measures. But it should be similar to a driver license in the respect that once you have a “license”; for a lack of a better word; that should be the end of it. You should be able to buy any and all the guns you want. They shouldn’t have to be registered or licensed. If I am found to be a responsible, mentally sane, legal aged, and law abiding citizen, then that should be the END OF THE DEBATE. I should be able to buy and carry a gun anytime and anyplace. </p>
<p>CAVEAT: Anyplace is defined as any public property that I am free to go. That would need to be defined. I believe that stores, restaurants, clubs, places of business, church, etc… are PRIVATE establishments. They have the right to post a sign saying no guns allowed. That is THEIR BUSINESS AND THEIR RIGHT. You have the right not to go into such a business. As far as Public government offices and such, that would require clarification depending on possible impact. </p>
<p>But I would never agree that a gun should be allowed ONLY for certain things. People forget that the #1 purpose of the 2nd amendment was so that the government could not forcefully overthrow the citizens; and so their rights and liberties would not be infringed. Hunting, sporting, hobbying, etc… are all secondary USES for the gun. If ANYTHING, the only way to put a stipulation on gun ownership would be to say that you can carry a gun any time and any place, but you can ONLY use it if your rights and liberties are being threatened. I doubt that anyone would want to agree that the ONLY purpose you should be able to use a gun for would be to shoot someone who is trying to harm you or overthrow your liberties. Especially considering that the OVERWHELMING uses of guns have not been used in any offensive manner.</p>
<p>In the case of the original topic; the law allows people to have a gun IN THEIR CAR at the parking lot of their employment. It doesn’t allow bringing the gun into a private business. (Unless the business owner allows it). It doesn’t allow you to carry the weapon concealed into your work. It allows you to have the gun in the vehicle. This makes a lot of sense. If you have a CCW permit; or live in a state that allows you to carry a gun openly or in your vehicle; you would currently NOT be able to EXERCISE that right/privilege because you’d have to leave it at home if you go to work. Most people don’t just leave home – go to work – leave work – and go home. There is a lot of other living being done in between. This law just allows the law abiding citizen to be allowed to exercise their right. If you can’t have the gun in a parking lot, because that is considered PRIVATE PROPERTY; then you basically CAN’T use the gun.</p>
<p>Of course, there will be those that believe that if they HAVE TO CONCEDE, then the only place you should have a gun is at home or on your way to a shooting event/hunting/etc… Well, hate to burst your bubble, but the RIGHT to bare arms does not say that you only have the right during certain hours of the day. The only reason for making any stipulations to gun ownership and such at all, was because we changed other laws that affect this right. I.e. we developed a legal and numeric definition of an ADULT. We redefined PRIVATE PROPERTY. etc… when we amend a law, we sometimes have to redefine our rights/privileges. Outside of that, a person should have the right to carry a gun any place they want to, so long as they are on public property or the private property owner condones it. They should have the right to use said gun in ANY MANNER that is legal in that place and time. Shooting a deer in city limits, out of season, shooting road signs, etc… is illegal; therefor using a gun for such a thing is against the law. Even concealed weapon permits list what you can and can’t do. For instance, you can’t walk into a public place and SHOW YOUR GUN. Also known as brandishing a weapon. However, there are some areas like where I live that you can legally walk down the street with a gun and holster on your side. Most people wouldn’t do that because it freaks out visitors and tourists. But you could legally do it if you wanted to. That’s why we don’t have a lot of CCW permits. We don’t need them. I can have a gun, loaded, in my car. I don’t need to hide it. Bottom line is; once a person is cleared to possess a gun, that should be the end of it. No registering of guns, no licensing of guns, no keeping a list of the guns they bought, etc…</p>
<p>
Back to the thread’s topic for a moment - realistically, if people are inclined to carry their gun in their car, aren’t allowed to have it in the parking lot, and are good law-abiding citizens, they’ll just park their car on the street next to the parking lot.</p>
<p>I don’t know where you live, but I’ve live all over this country. There are plenty of places where there’s NO Street for parking on. Thus, the whole intention of a parking lot. The streets that are available, depending on the area, could also be set up for 2 hour parking and such. Your believe that if I can’t keep a gun in my car because it’s in a private parking lot, that I can just park on the street, is overly optimistic. Most towns; in the business district areas, don’t have that type of Street parking.</p>
<p>^^ I understand - that (the parking) is one of the reasons why I like living and working outside of the urban areas. The point I was trying to make is that if people think not allowing it in the parking lot somehow makes them safer they need to think again since one can simply park on the public street with their locked in the car gun. Of course, the ‘simply’ will vary depending on the availability of parking on the adjacent streets.</p>
<p>Guess the Constitution only applies when democrats want it too.</p>
<p>This law is meant to put an end to some “gun-free zones”…in this case parking lots. Let’s face it, “gun-free zones” don’t work anyway. If a person in Florida, with a concealed carry permit wants to LOCK their gun in their car, while at work, they should be able to. What possible reason is there to deny them that ability?</p>
<hr>
<p>To address a couple things
1of42, your “wrong people” are already prohibited from purchasing firearms from an FFL by federal law. That is what the NICS system is for.
People do not need licenses to buy firearms (except in places like Illinois). This is similar to almost any good. You do not need a license to OWN a car. You do need one to drive a vehicle on public roads. You also need a permit to carry a concealed firearm in public areas (except in Alaska and Vermont).</p>
<p>Alaska has concealed-carry permits but those permits are solely for the purpose of reciprocity, just so Alaska’s residents can carry in other states. Just a clarification for any…Alaskans out there…</p>
<p>ninja-
I have no idea what it is you are pushing me to say. But as for the workplace/parking lot thing, I think ucsd<em>ucla</em>dad said it all.</p>
<p>Christcorp. If you cant follow the rules of the private workplace parking lot,and there is no street parking, then find another lot or ride public transportation (without packing heat, please). As for other places I’d like guns not to be… I see no need for guns at a 3 year olds birthday party, a baby naming, a retirement party, or seeing the pope…to name a few.</p>
<p>jym; I’m trying so hard not to turn this into an argument or letting it get personal. But you are making it very difficult. I know that you can’t possibly be as closed minded as your last post makes you out to be. This entire thread and debate, it has been said by many; including me; about the personal rights. I specifically said that PRIVATE establishments; including a private home, business, church, restaurant, etc… are PRIVATE places, and as such have every right in the world to forbid a gun to be brought in. Do you have a reading problem with comprehension, or are you purposely just trying to keep a debate going that no one is arguing. I know you can’t really be that way. Can you???</p>
<p>The law florida is doing ONLY deals with parking lots. Parking lots, while legally private property, is in practicality a transition zone. Just as are sidewalks, streets, If you lived in the west or midwest where there is a lot of open area, you would understand what a transition zone is. There are plenty of areas where a ranch, farm, etc… could own thousands upon thousands of acres. While it is private property, there can be county and state roads going through it because of it’s location and access. The public is allowed on these roads. The private property owner can’t say no. A parking lot is similar. It is for customers, employees, vendors, contractors, visitors, etc… It’s a transition between the public world and the private world. Similar to streets and sidewalks. Your car is PRIVATE property. Just because it’s in the Bank’s parking lot (Private Property) doesn’t give the bank the right to search your car. The florida law clarifies this. The car is your private property. You can have anything in that private property that you want and the owner of the parking lot can not say anything about it. Now, if you aren’t authorized to be parking there, then can have you towed. They still can’t search your private property, but they can remove it.</p>
<p>Please, if you are going to debate an issue, at least read it first. Know what you are talking about. Every place that you mentioned that you didn’t want to see a gun at is private property. You have a choice whether to be there or not, and the owner of that property where the baby birthday party is, naming, christening, or anything else has the say so on whether or not to allow a gun there. Just like they have the right to say no smoking, drinking, cursing, etc… on their property. Please read what you are going to TRY and debate. It would help so I don’t have to be so long winded telling you basically that your post makes no sense.</p>
<p>jym, I’m simply trying to figure out where you are on the original topic, the parking lot bill. Those were sincere questions, not rhetorical. Why should people not have concealed-carry? The facts show that the blood-in-the-streets predictions have never come true and I haven’t heard a substantive reason why CCW holders shouldn’t have the right to lock their guns in their cars.</p>
<p>I think it was Michelle Obama who, when touring rural Iowa said something to the effect of, “The houses are really far apart and the towns aren’t close, I can see why someone would want a gun out here.” If you think about someone breaking down or being left stranded in their car, being able to legally park at both ends of their journey makes perfect sense. You can’t protect yourself during your commute if your employer says you can’t keep the gun in your car. The guns are kept concealed, locked, and in the private vehicles of customers. I’ll give you a real world example though. A week or so ago a pizza delivery driver got mugged, shoved into an alley, and a gun put to his head. I’m not making this up. The guy takes his concealed firearm and shoots the mugger, wounding him. [Update:</a> Arrest made in pizza shooting | DesMoinesRegister.com | The Des Moines Register](<a href=“http://www.desmoinesregister.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080328/NEWS/80328005/1136]Update:”>http://www.desmoinesregister.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080328/NEWS/80328005/1136)</p>
<p>What the Florida law does is prevent a private business, say Pizza Hut, from prohibiting the employee (or customer) from leaving their lawful firearm locked in the car. “Under the law, employers can’t condition employment on whether a worker has a gun or a concealed-weapons permit.” This is also an important component of the bill. That Pizza Hut driver was suspended for violating company policy. He still wasn’t breaking the law, just choosing to risk his job instead of risk his life. The gun was totally legal. Florida has it right that employers shouldn’t restrict their employees’ or customers’ rights. </p>
<p>By the way, packing heat on public transportation is on Governor Perdue’s desk in the state of Georgia.</p>
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Gee, with open minded and diplomatic statements like that, I can’t imagine why you would think this discussion would be anything but civil and congenial with such kind and reasonable comments brought ointo the foray. Stop finger pointing and take a quick peek in the mirror. Sheesh. Oh, and don’t respond with more accusations. Waste of airspace.</p>
<p>** and to clarify, The suggestions about alternative places to park or alternative ways to get to work were just that. Don’t read more into it than is there. UCSD-UCLA_Dad made an appropriate suggestion which was then shot down, so I made additional suggestions, and I get attacked with a verbal assault weapon. Wow. No need to overreact. Chill.</p>
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Yes, I am fully aware of this (see my post # 24) and I think it is stupid, stupid STUPID.
Since some posters have chosen to take this discussion to a personal assault level with such <em>kind and open-minded</em> statements as
I shall let you folks battle this out amongst yourselves. Have fun. Most others have wisely taken their leave from this discussion. So shall I. Please feel free to get your last word in, Christcorp, but please consider a bit of civility. Fanatical rhetoric doesn’t get listened to by anyone.</p>
<p>jym; no one here wants these discussions to be personal. I personally respect every person’s opinion. My only frustration was that we’re arguing and debating issues that no one is disagreeing on. Also; based on the title of the original thread, people are being mislead into believing things that just aren’t true. In 30 seconds or less, my main 2 points to put this topic into perspective are;</p>
<ol>
<li><p>The law does NOT allow people to take their gun to work. It redefines a person’s car as private property, and as such, a person is allowed to have a gun in it. Even if parked in a parking lot physically owned by that person’s employer.</p></li>
<li><p>Just as those who defend a person’s RIGHT to have and/or carry a gun; those people equally defend a person’s RIGHT to not have a gun on their private property. Resident, store owner, restaurant, bar, club, church, small business, child’s birthday party, etc… are all private establishments. Therefor, the owner of that establishment has every right to have no guns. Just like no smoking, drinking, cursing, shoes, etc…</p></li>
</ol>
<p>The only difference with this law is that; being your vehicle is PRIVATE PROPERTY, that property trumps the parking lot being considered private property. This is a very good balance between individual’s rights. It’s NOT a STUPID law. Sorry for getting frustrated. It’s difficult debating a topic when incorrect information is presented as being true. The gun is NOT BEING ALLOWED TO GO TO WORK WITH YOU, and no private property owner is being told they HAVE to allow guns on their property.</p>
<p>The fact that concealed-carry holders could park on the street instead of parking in a parking lot shows just how asinine the argument against this law is. If people have been keeping guns locked in their cars parked on the street for 20 years of concealed-carry and not shooting each other, why should parking lots be off-limits? Floridians have been carrying for a long-time and both houses of the legislature and the governor think it should be expanded, not restricted. Besides, a concealed-carry holder may not be able to know if he or she will be able to find a spot on the street when he or she leaves to go shopping.</p>
<p>Jym, I hope you’ll come back and answer this question. You say allowing concealed-carry on public transport is “stupid, stupid STUPID,” but you don’t say WHY. I’m trying to show that concealed-carry holders are responsible, law-abiding people with statistics and history but it’s hard to discuss something with someone who just dismisses something without saying why. Ohio’s public transportation system allows concealed-carry and I haven’t heard of any problems with that. Also, keep in mind that (at least where I live) public transportation is used primarily by lower-income folks who usually live in higher-crime areas. Walking to and from the bus stop, they could be the victim of a crime. Not allowing them to carry their legal handgun on the bus or train leaves them vulnerable.</p>
<p>I want to hear how making legal gun owners drive instead of taking the bus will reduce crime. I also want to hear how making legal gun owners park in the street outside their local Radioshack instead of in the parking lot makes people safer. After being fired, I guess having to walk a few hundred extra feet to get their gun from their car will make them realize, “This is a bad idea!” I’d also like to point out that UCSD Dad’s “solution” unfairly affects those with mobility problems or physical handicaps. Making people with disabilities park at the street, away from where they are working or shopping, because they’ve decided their concealed-carry is a valuable tool for self-defense seems like a bad idea.</p>
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Just to clarify - I wasn’t proposing the parking on the street as a solution - just a statement of fact that guns are already being legally locked in cars by whoever is so inclined and I don’t think parking that same car a few feet further in a parking lot will represent any more of a danger/threat than it already might when parked next to the lot entrance.</p>
<p>For example, if my company prohibits guns in cars in the parking lot and I want to go skeet shooting at lunch nearby work and I wanted to follow the company’s rules, I’d simply park on the street next to the lot. It’d be less convenient for me but possible. But as ‘ChristCorp’ stated, not every business has convenient street access. My point though is that if I park it 20 feet away from the entrance to the lot why wouldn’t I just go ahead and park it in the lot? It isn’t as if I couldn’t get it from the car on the street if I was in a rage just as easily as from the lot. So, not being allowed to have it in the lot really comes down to an inconvenience for me but not a safety improvement for everyone around me since I’d still have access to the gun albeit not in the lot. </p>
<p>Another reason to allow it in lots - what happens if I’m on my way to shoot skeet and happen to stop to pick up a burrito on the way? Am I allowed to even be in that restaurant’s lot? I wouldn’t even know unless they displayed their preference (car with/without gun) prominently at the entrance.</p>
<p>Now, for a reason to possibly not allow parking in lots with guns in cars - theft. Cars are at risk for break-in and a gun would be a prize. I suppose if the gun was loaded or easily loaded with adjacent ammo and there were no trigger lock (most CCW people would want a handgun loaded and with no lock or else it’s not very useful as personal defense) the criminal could end up using it - even at said workplace. Of course, the same car parked on the street has the same issue although it would generally be more at risk of theft since it’s on a public street. I think this is a corner case though.</p>
<p>Sorry to misunderstand you UCSD UCLA dad, that was my fault all the way. </p>
<p>You’re absolutely right that theft could be a problem with guns in cars, but it’s also important to realize that there were more home burglaries than car burglaries in 1999 for Florida. I don’t know if the ATF would have a projection or if there could be an estimate of the number of guns stolen from cars and homes, but it would seem that leaving the guns at home makes them equally vulnerable to theft.</p>
<p>Considering parked cars are usually more visible to the public than the interior of a house, I would guess a car thief would want to spend as little time looking through a car as possible. That’s just my guess though.</p>
<p>Well, I’ve only had my house broken into once but I’ve had my cars stolen twice and broken into several more times. The last time was in the parking lot at work. And it’s quite amazing how quickly a car can be stolen or broken into.</p>