Next step in Music for a non-major

<p>Below is a much more detailed account of where I currently stand, but here’s the gist of it:</p>

<p>I have very little formal training/experience in music and a Master’s in a completely unrelated field, but I want to continue pursuing music and I want to know what my options are, with voice as a primary instrument (though my musical interests are far broader than that, as indicated below).</p>

<hr>

<p>I came to music very late in my academic career. Having studied Linguistics and Philosophy, before ultimately majoring in Math, it wasn’t until my super-senior year that I started taking voice lessons. Once I started singing, I was hooked. Around my obscenely busy schedule, as I completed my major and got my masters in Secondary Math Education over the next couple of years, I pursued every opportunity I could to make music. </p>

<p>The amount of music I could fit into my academic schedule was very limited. As I could only fit in one additional full-credit class, I studied on my own to test into Music Theory 201, which ended up being an incredibly rewarding experience (I loved every bit of it, though I was WAY behind the curve on the practical skills like dictation); I wish I could have taken the next class in the series (all the classes, even!).</p>

<p>I sang with my college choir when I could (one semester auditing, the other actually enrolled), but when it didn’t fit into my schedule, I sang with a smaller student-run choral ensemble. I continued taking voice lessons, performing with the school’s opera workshop and singing in any number of master classes. I currently sing in two different non-collegiate competitive choruses and the list of unrelated minor musical outlets/engagements/competitions I’ve and do participate in are growing too numerous to ennumerate.</p>

<p>For all this, I still feel almost completely raw and uncultivated as a musician. With the exception of piano lessons as a child, I had literally NO musical experience, academic or otherwise, when I started taking voice lessons (and those voice lessons only amounted to half an hour a week over five semesters). A lot of the skills/instincts other musicians take for granted are still novel to me and, as my music “education” has been haphazard at best (whatever I could fit in at any point in time), those skills bave been being developed at an arduous pace.</p>

<p>I do enjoy teaching math, but I’m at a juncture where I could potentially decide to make music a much bigger part of my life; once I start teaching, my flexibility to further educate myself will be severely limited. At this point, I’m honestly not even certain what it is I am looking for.</p>

<p>I clearly don’t have the experience to apply to most graduate programs: my sight-reading and other technical skills are lacking, I don’t have proficiency in any typical performance languages (though, as a former linguist who grew up bilingual, I’ve been able to make do), the only music history I know is what I’ve gleaned in preparing for performances and my piano skills show promise but are very undeveloped (I stopped playing 13 years ago, but recently slipped a couple months of lessons in that were incredibly productive).</p>

<p>My voice instructor thinks I’d be wasting my time pursuing music academically, but he is of the misguided notion that I’m Leonard Warren reincarate. His advice was that I should polish a few arias and go audition for the Met (seriously). While I’m flattered, especially as he is an accomplished lyric baritone in his own right (he studied under Jean-Christophe Benoit and Gerard Souzay and sang professionally for years), I suspect that too many years teaching undergraduates with physiologically less-developed voices (I’m 27) has predisposed him to have an unrealistically favorable impression of my voice.</p>

<hr>

<p>So here’s where I stand:</p>

<ul>
<li>I’d like to continue singing (perhaps professionally, if that’s a possibility).</li>
<li>I’d like to develop my skills as a musician on all fronts (not just vocal performance).</li>
<li>I’m looking to contrast programs and/or professional performance outlets that I could maintain while teaching as opposed to those that would constitute a full time commitment.</li>
<li>I’m trying to determine what a realistic next step is: degree or non-degree classes in theory/history/composition/piano/voice/language at an undergraduate level? Auditioning for professional companies? Graduate programs?</li>
</ul>

<p>Maybe you might want to post the same question on a forum that focuses on careers and professional singers? NFCS.Net or classicalvoices.net ?
Just my .02, but a lot of what you are asking can only be answered by someone who has heard your voice and knows where you live. You need to sing for as many people as possible and ask them these questions. As far as auditioning at the Met National Council auditions, make sure you are good and ready-----since the judges keep notes from year to year, just make sure your first impression is a great one. <a href=“http://www.metoperafamily.org/metopera/auditions/national/[/url]”>http://www.metoperafamily.org/metopera/auditions/national/&lt;/a&gt; Good luck!</p>

<p>Isn’t it wonderful that you’ve discovered a passion for music! I know little about voice, so my advice is probably completely without merit, but I do know a number of active amateur instrumentalists who by day work at a variety of careers. Many of them feel that their “night music” is what makes life worth living, but recognize the realities of a world where doing something like teaching math is what pays the bills. Some of them are sufficiently accomplished musicians that they play professionally part time or even teach a few students, some are enrolled part time at local conservatories or universities as music students, some take lessons at community music schools, some just get together with friends to play quartets, some devote their energies to a church or community choir, some just pull out their instruments in the privacy of their own homes. There’s no one path.</p>

<p>A good book for adult musicians is “Music for the Joy of It” by Stephanie Judy.</p>

<p>I appreciate your responses and I agree that advice is hard to give without the context of having heard me. As I implied in my original post (my proclivity toward over-extrapolating perhaps obscured my intent), I think it would be foolhardy for me to audition for the Met with where I’m at currently. Even if I were completely confident in my abilities, I have very little solo performance experience and that adds a great deal of uncertainty to how I might stack up under the pressure of such a high-stakes audition. </p>

<p>I’m a firm believer in nurture over nature and will over the both of them. A person may be given an advantage, but that “talent” is meaningless unless the work is put in to develop it (and even without that innate advantage, a person who is dedicated can work their way up). When I indicated that I’m “raw and uncultivated” I meant that, so far, I’ve been progressing on enthusiasm alone; a strategy of increased exposure is a start, but it isn’t enough and, up until now I haven’t had the freedom to do any more than that. I have YEARS to make up for and I need to be working smarter if I want to push my potential (“reaching your potential” is such a limiting concept).</p>

<p>I absolutely do intend to be making “night music,” regardless of where I go from here, but I’m not content to just “settle in” in that respect. I am very cognizant of the demands of the “real world” and paying my bills is of concern to me, but I’m here because I’m trying to find a way to have my cake and eat it too. Teaching is something I’m passionate about, so it would be more than just a way for me to pay the bills and feed my music habit. My speciality is high needs education, so a potential long-term goal might be to seek a teaching certification in Music as well, so that I could teach a period or two of music and the rest math at a school that hasn’t the resources to have a full-time music teacher. I’m very far from this being a feasible thing to pursue at this point, but it’s not too soon to be thinking about first steps.</p>

<p>Which brings us back to what I am to do, for now. Without knowing me, obviously you can’t give terribly objective advice for what I /should/ do, but, at this point, I am more interested in simply gathering information on what options are out there. I posted here because my first barrier is ignorance of what sort of programs are out there for a person in my situation. </p>

<p>I’ve done my own naive research into various music programs, but most of the advertised information is geared toward people who are approaching music from a more conventional starting point (coming into college as a freshman or coming out of college as a music major or close equivalent). Part of why my own research is naive is that I’m approaching all this as a true novice; I don’t know where to start looking for information and I’ll definitely look at the forums you suggested!</p>

<p>I think my questions are still pertinent to this forum, however, as this is a place where people discuss academic programs and that’s exactly what I need information about (professional options I threw in there only because it /is/ a consideration, not because I mistook this as a place for career advice).</p>

<p>In an attempt to provide a little more context: </p>

<ul>
<li> I live in the DC Metro Area and, though it would be convenient to stay in these parts, if a sufficiently compelling opportunity existed elsewhere (and from I’ve gathered so far, there seems to be comparatively more of those elsewhere), I’m currently in a position to freely consider it (until I get a job and otherwise settle down).</li>
<li> I’d currently classify myself as a Dramatic Baritone, though my voice instructor believes me to be a Verdi Baritone. He may be right on that count, as despite the haphazard/unstructured manner in which I’ve been pursuing singing until now, my top has expanded from a E4 to G4 in the past two years (though that last note still lacks polish); I feel there is a lot yet to be achieved through improved technique.</li>
<li> If there is any other information I could supply that could help, just let me know; again, your responses are much appreciated!</li>
</ul>

<p>Podari, you don’t say where in DC area you are but both Northern Virginia Community College and Montgomery Community College offer Music courses that can help you fill in the areas you feel need a boost. Taking these courses could set you up to then apply for Master or Certificate programs in other universities or conservatories. Since you discussed the MET auditions, I presume you are under age 30. Many graduate students in music are in their mid to late 20s. You have been with a teacher for a couple of years. Make sure that teacher has sent students to advance programs. If not, try to locate another teacher. University of Maryland and Catholic University are both good places. Some professors take on outside students. You could contact some there and get a trial lesson for their advice. Good luck in your pursuit. </p>

<p>[NOVA</a> 2011-2012 COLLEGE CATALOG : PROGRAMS OF STUDY](<a href=“500 - Error - Northern Virginia Community College”>500 - Error - Northern Virginia Community College)</p>

<p>[url=&lt;a href=“http://cms.montgomerycollege.edu/EDU/Plain.aspx?id=13301]Music[/url”&gt;http://cms.montgomerycollege.edu/EDU/Plain.aspx?id=13301]Music[/url</a>]</p>

<p>Podari, I too know nothing about voice except what I read in these threads. However, my son was faced with “catching up” after a late start (in hs, so different, but not entirely different…) and I’ve seen first hand that where there’s a will there’s a way so I simply wanted to encourage your pursuit.</p>

<p>First off, I am given to understand that later is better in terms of developing the voice, so you may not be as far behind as you believe. (while not a voice major, my son did start taking voice at his music school on the side for his own pleasure.)</p>

<p>Given your background, I am wondering if it would be possible for you to teach math as an associate at a university, audit the theory classes et al, continue privately with a teacher, and later audition to masters vps? It sounds like a lot of moving parts, but you sound like you want both the credentials and the background musically and you love to teach. I have heard of people pursuing a performance masters after studying a different undergrad, although I realize this is perhaps the exception rather than the rule, with myriad fiscal implications.
Best wishes in your journey. It sounds like an adventure ;)</p>

<p>I apparently was not clear as to exactly what sort of advice you were looking for. Graduate programs are time consuming, expensive and (more to the point) highly individualized. I might be mistaken, but I got the impression that you do not trust your teachers opinion (“unrealistically favorable impression”) That is why I suggested that you still need to get out there and sing for potential teachers to get an honest assessment as to what your next step might be. Consider contacting teachers at Maryland, CCM, and AVA (Academy of Vocal Arts).</p>

<p>I don’t know a lot about voice either, beyond what is on this forum. I noticed you are 27, so it would seem that it is not at all too late.</p>

<p>First, it is possible that your teacher is right in his evaluation of your talent, and that you could go right into auditions, at the Met or elsewhere. Hypothetically, if you could succeeded, would that satisfy you? Would you still feel insecure without more academic and vocal training? I am sensing that you sort of hunger for history, theory, musicology and so on, as well as more private work for voice.</p>

<p>I know a young man who got in as an apprentice in a major ballet company, but decided to do 4 years of conservatory anyway. He wanted to feel more solid, there were things he still wanted to learn, and he felt he would be in a better position to make choices after the education.</p>

<p>If I were you, I would look at undergraduate curricula/courses for BM degrees in vocal performance at conservatories, Westminster Choir College, etc. Then you can get a concrete idea of what you are “missing.” I know that some conservatories have continuing education departments (NEC has an excellent one). I wonder if Peabody in Baltimore (affiliated with Johns Hopkins) is within reach for you, either for regular daytime classes as a special student, or through evening classes. Maybe even a second bachelor’s, in music (BM?): it seems as if you have already done some of the coursework. Or, fill in the gaps and do a master’s.</p>

<p>I would think you could meet with vocal performance teachers at conservatories and elsewhere for advice. You cannot be the only one in this situation. Voice and composition students could face this dilemma: instrumentalists would not be able to start with any ambition in late 20’s, but this is still ballpark for vocal performance.</p>

<p>A friend of mine has a daughter at Westminster, who just auditioned and got a part in the chorus singing with Andrew Bocelli. She is a sophomore, and her voice is probably not as mature as yours.</p>

<p>What do you want to end up doing with your voice? What kinds of parts, ensembles, works?</p>

<p>I have written too much, but I think you can decide to go ahead and test out your teacher’s opinion, either by checking with other teachers or actually auditioning. Or, if you still have a craving or feel a need for the education, go for it, either through continuing education, another Bachelor’s, or filling in gaps and applying for an MM.</p>

<p>You seem like a great person and it is wonderful that you have found this passion! You may be self-deprecating. Bottom line: don’t be too down on yourself because this is not too late, and do whatever it takes for you to “follow your bliss”!</p>

<p>First off, thank you all for your feedback; I can’t express how much I appreciate it. Forgive me for the haphazard manner in which I respond to your various points below, but, if it’s asking too much to read through all that, here’s the consensus I seem to be drawing and my subsequent questions:</p>

<ol>
<li> I should get advice in person, from people who are well informed and can hear me</li>
<li> Options so far include UMD faculty, AVA, CCM (?), Catholic and following up with my instructor</li>
<li> Though tangential to this forum’s purpose: more options, thoughts and contacts are welcome!</li>
<li> Before I can pursue a MM or AVA (if that is the route to take), I’ll need to fill gaps</li>
<li> I could pick up courses at a community college (NVCC?)</li>
<li> I could take online courses:
Q. What online education programs are good/available with content in music?
Q. Tangential: What software might I use to help build crucial skills (e.g. Rosetta Stone)?</li>
<li> I could take continuing education courses through a conservatory/university (e.g. NEC)
Q. What such programs exist and what advantages do they have over the other options?</li>
<li> I could seek a BM:
Q. What programs out there have accomodations for a second Bachelor’s?
Q. What is a realistic time-frame in which to complete such a program?
Q. What programs are there that might fit around a full-time job?</li>
</ol>

<p>Compmom - you’ve really hit the nail on the head on all points! I did not mean to impugn my instructor’s experience or judgment, as it would appear from musicamusica’s response may be the indication I’ve given; I have the utmost respect for him and the strides I’ve been able to make in a mere half-hour of structured time with him (amidst my otherwise schizophrenic schedule) has been life-changing. I just feel it prudent to temper his enthusiasm with a more grounded assessment of where I’m at, per all my previous indications of various deficiencies. </p>

<p>I’m not entirely certain he meant that I should be auditioning this season either (it’s now too late for that to be a consideration); it may very well be that he meant I should spend the next year (more?) polishing my craft (he said there were instructors in my area he’d recommend working with). I was so taken aback by the suggestion, at the time, that I didn’t really inquire any further and I have had life obligations that have been my utterly consuming priority in the intervening months. Visiting school and sitting down with him is on my list of things to do.</p>

<p>Speaking of which, Singersmom07, thanks for directing me to UMD and Catholic University, I will definitely look into them when I start considering new voice instructors! I’ve looked at both GMU and NVCC, which are within proximity if I were to stay in this region. GMU lacks the flexibility in their course offerings for me to be able to teach simultaneously and, if I’m not going to be working, there are certainly better places for me to be pursuing music full-time (part of the purpose of this thread is to determine exactly what those options are). NVCC, on the other hand, definitely has an array of courses that may be interesting to explore, useful in plugging gaps and that are offered in the evenings or online. </p>

<p>That brings me to another line of questioning: if I am to work full-time and am, thus, in need of flexibility, are there any particularly good online programs out there for music (not exactly the best subject to be learning at a distance, but presumably there are programs that have better courses than those offered at NVCC)?</p>

<p>This is somewhat tangential to our discussion, but I’m not above looking into /computer/ programs as well; I’ve already acquired Rosetta Stone from a friend, so I can start independently working on my Italian, German and French (in that order, as the respective repertoire in those languages are more or less appropriate for my voice), so feel free to offer any other software suggestions.</p>

<p>kmcmom13 - Thanks for the encouragement; glad to meet another believer in the power of will! I have, indeed, come to appreciate that I’m not too terribly far behind in the development of my instrument, but performing is only one part instrument and my other musical sensibilities are where I really feel I’m lagging behind. This is not to say that I don’t have a LOT to learn yet about technique; there’s a ton of space for growth in the realm of breath support and vocal flexibility (to name only a couple places I still feel particularly “behind”), but in terms of articulation and resonance, for example, I feel I’m at least on par with my more experienced counterparts (though, obviously, there’s plenty of room for improvement there too!).</p>

<p>As for teaching at a university, I’d really need at least a Master’s in Mathematics (which would involve mastery of a specific discipline), rather than Secondary Mathematics Education (which is far broader with a heavier emphasis on HS math pedagogy), in order to do so. It may be possible to teach at a community college, which could be a complement to Singersmom07’s suggestion, but I’m not sure, if I were to teach, if the benefits of such an arrangement would outweigh my preference for working in high needs high schools.</p>

<p>Musicamusica - Thanks for re-affirming the suggestion to check out UMD; I’ll look into it! AVA has been on my list of programs to look into further as a potential long-term goal, as I definitely don’t currently meet their eligibility criteria (if you have any insight on them, feel free to extrapolate!). I’m not sure where you meant by CCM? With respect to all three, if you have suggestions as to points of contact, it’d be greatly appreciated!</p>

<p>Compmom - getting back to how well you have me pegged, “hunger” is absolutely an appropriate term to describe the voracity of my interests, which is particularly accentuated in the realm of music, but truly knows no disciplinary bounds. I was once told that, if I were Buddha’s student, I’d be his favorite, but that’s neither here nor there… The point is, while I would be happy and perfectly contented to pour all my energies into performance if a professional route was truly an option, I’d still, per my insatiability, want to continue to broaden my musical foundation.</p>

<p>As for getting a sense of what I’m missing, I spent an incredible day at Westminster, singing with a few ensembles and sitting in on graduate classes. That place is heaven; what I wouldn’t give to be surrounded by incredible musicians and learning awesome things about voice science! The visit was completely on the fly, so I hadn’t prepared anything, but the head of the voice performance program was unbelievably kind enough to meet with me all the same. </p>

<p>She said that I was “an amiable young man,” but that, while I clearly had the voice to be pursuing this, I was obviously lacking in altogether too many of the prerequisites (language proficiencies, theory, and history competencies to reiterate only part of what I indicated in my initial post) to be looking at such a program just yet. The opportunity to visit was so unexpected and I was so embroiled, at the time, in my Master’s that I hadn’t yet given much thought to what I’d be doing afterward; I wish I could have capitalized on that opportunity to ask some more informed and pointed questions. Though I may not have gotten more than a general outline of gaps to fill, it meant the world to me that Dr. Cusack took the time to sit down with me and that she was so incredibly encouraging.</p>

<p>As for what I want to do with my voice, that is kindof up in the air: I know that I love to make music (solo and ensemble) and that I’d love to continue learning everything there is to know about music, but doing so, for me, is the end unto itself. Getting back to the Buddha comment, it was in reference to my compulsion toward mastery in all my endeavors for its own sake… without any thought for practicality, expediency or other worldly constraints (it wasn’t entirely a compliment :-P). I’m just looking for the best real-world means to this abstract end. I’ll be happy as long as I’m learning and making music, but I’m not afraid to shoot for the stars! In committing myself to this endeavor, community college may serve as a stop-gap, but my aspirations are boundless and will ultimately need more fertile ground in which to grow.</p>

<p>If you think you wrote too much, well… Getting back to the point, I may not be able to commute to Peabody from where I’m at now, but that doesn’t mean it’s too far. I’ll look into that and continuing education programs are added to my list of potential options.</p>

<p>This is what I am getting as an overview:

  1. You are going to be working full time teaching math, preferably at a high needs high school.
  2. You are going to be working privately with a voice teacher. Your current teacher feels this may be enough to get you some success if you audition, but you hunger for more education. Still, this private work would seem to be a top priority musically. (And meeting with other teachers as discussed above would also be helpful)
    3)You crave a broad music education, partly so you can progress with singing, but also because you want the knowledge.
    4)You can meet with someone, say, at Westminster to get a list of prerequisites, and how best to pursue them, making sure that certain classes would be accepted (for instance, would community college music theory count and/or be useful once at a conservatory?)
  3. You may be able to pursue specific subjects at different places: languages at community college, music history at a local university, and theory at a conservatory (I would think theory online might not be the best, since solfege/ear training/dictation and so on are best done in a classroom, but perhaps others know of online programs that do cover this material well.)
  4. Once you have done all this, you may be able to enter a master’s program, or you may, in fact, be able to audition and perform at that point. You may be able to do both at the same time, depending on money and teaching schedule.</p>

<p>The only thing is that I would hate to see you delay actually singing in favor of academics. That is where my knowledge of vocal performance falls short. Are you in the best time of life to sing? How necessary are theory and history courses for professional vocal performance? How much do professional companies/ensembles rely on resume and education, as opposed to audition (I would think very little.)</p>

<p>If you could sing professionally, would you still try to teach math? Would you find part-time ways to keep that teaching in your life (sing professionally and tutor, or teach GED students, that type of thing?). In other words, with some courses under your belt and more private work with a teacher, would you ever give up the math teaching to follow music full-time, in school or as a profession?</p>

<p>To me, that is an important question. There is financial risk involved, but if the answer is yes, then perhaps you could work enough to eat but really accelerate the music for a year and see where you are at. Or maybe, these days, where you are living, full-time is needed to eat!</p>

<p>p.s. Just saw in another thread that undergrad vocal performance students are not encouraged to sing opera, but to sing as part of a chorus, until voices mature, so in performance, you are not “behind.” You know this I imagine. I get educated on here: I knew vaguely that voices should not be overused while maturing, but that was specific information that I had not seen before.</p>

<p>I do not recommend another bachelors degree. They take too long and require all kinds of courses you do not need at this point in your life. Some graduate programs take the raw talent and then put students in “remedial” classes to catch up in languages, diction, and ear training, etc. Westminster is only 1 data point. You need more. So we come back to more in person trials and interviews to explore and get evaluations. That is going to tell you more than any other activity on your potential course of action. </p>

<p>In the meantime, there are numerous choirs in the DC area. Even if you are just singing in a church choir there are a number of excellent ones with people who are singing in professional scenes. Watch the Washington Post arts section for audition information on some of the choirs. Go and listen to some and try out or join (depending on requirements). It will get you singing with others and let you also judge your own progress. It will also expand your network. Music is a small world with networking very important.</p>

<p>Podari,</p>

<p>You have gotten some very good advice and I can’t think of much to add. I would, however, like to compliment you on your respect for and knowledge of the English language. It is refreshing to read complete paragraphs with structure and thought behind them. I suppose that should be expected from someone who has studied Linguistics, Philosophy and Mathematics, but it is all too rarely observed. I wish you the best of luck in adding Music to the mix.</p>

<p>Look into Indiana University. They are known for having taken singers (particularly male) into their program who have the voice for a career but do not have the prerequisites needed to enter into a MM because they discovered their talent relatively late in life. For these students they have made accommodations and helped them get their voices to a professional level. </p>

<p>I highly recommend a well planned trip out there. Make sure you have some songs that you can just pull out of your back pocket and sing and make sure to contact all the right people in advance. They can be very generous with scholarships at the graduate level and I think it would be a fantastic place for someone like yourself.</p>

<p>Hmm… I set up a subscription to this thread thinking it would spare me having to obsessively refresh it, but, two weeks later, it would appear there were some very significant responses that popped up very soon after breaking my “habit” and I wasn’t informed! </p>

<p>At this point, I think the cost-of-entry for anybody new to this thread might be a little too high, so I’m not going to bother summarizing like I did in my previous posts; I’ll just respond to each person in turn. If any of you would care to continue this as a private conversation, feel free to message me independently, but I still welcome and appreciate any and all further public discourse!</p>

<p>Thank you all, I’ve been getting nothing but great advice!</p>

<hr>

<p>Musicamusica - I just wanted to say thank you, again, for referring me to those other forums. I have spent countless hours perusing them and have only scratched the surface of the knowledge and expertise contained therein.</p>

<p>Compmom - In clarification of some points in your overview:

  1. Teaching HS math is a career that I am passionate about, but one that I could continue to pursue at any point in time. My window of opportunity for voice performance is rapidly closing, however, especially in the opera world, as the primary means of getting one’s foot in the door (or the window; yay, mixed metaphors!) are programs and competitions geared toward Young Artists (often 30 and under, but sometimes older).
    I’m not sure I want to pursue a career in opera (I’m not at a point where I’m sufficiently informed to make that decision), but my point is that, if pursuing music means putting off teaching, that’s fine by me. There would then be financial consideration to take into account, but “where there’s a will there’s a way.”
  2. It would seem I failed to mention that I’m no longer in proximity to my previous voice instructor (seems a glaring omission), which is why seeking his advice isn’t as straightforward as sitting down during/after a weekly lesson. I’m waiting to hear back from him about voice instructors in this area and, equipped with that knowledge and the suggestions provided here, I’ll probably take the discussion of voice teachers to a forum that is more appropriate for that conversation.
  3. Absolutely!
  4. I have several friends who are graduate students at Westminster (three of whom were also in that concert with Andrew Bocelli; wish I could have been there!) and I’ve already put in some inquiries concerning the specific requirements of that vs. other programs and what credentials would be adequate.
  5. I agree that those practical skills would be hard to acquire independently and that they are often incorporated or paired with theory classes, but the theory content itself is something that could probably be learned quite efficiently at a distance (or on my own).
  6. That’s what I hope!</p>

<p>In answer to your other points:
Rest assured, I have no intention of delaying singing! My academic aspirations should serve to complement performance; knowing history and theory may not make you a better singer, but it can certainly do a lot to inform interpretation. As for whether this is the best time of life to sing: physiologically, no (the male voice continues to develop into the mid-thirties or later, depending on voice type), but, per my answer to (1), professionally, yes.</p>

<p>As for my willingness to abandon teaching entirely for professional singing; I’m not at a point where I can make that decision, though, as I indicated earlier, I’m certainly willing to put teaching temporarily on the back-burner. I doubt I could maintain a full-time teaching job and a professional singing career, both are very demanding on your time and energy and the latter requires a great deal of flexibility (which you’re not liable to have if tied to the school calendar). </p>

<p>Even if I could, I’m not sure I’d want to, as dividing my attentions as such would be doing my students a disservice (and the music, most likely). Professional singers do, generally, maintain jobs as they work toward “making it,” so tutoring and the like isn’t out of the question if I am to go down that path, depending on whether I can work out the hours to have adequate flexibility (contingent on location, a math MAEd can make well in excess of $30/hr tutoring, but substitute teaching pay is generally abysmal).</p>

<p>That’s not something I really need to concern myself with right now, however, as the current question (one of them anyway) is whether there is a way to teach while working toward being a viable candidate for graduate programs or professional work. This thread has given me some hope that this is feasible, but that hope hasn’t yet found a form in which to manifest.</p>

<p>As for your post script, undergrads are, indeed, generally discouraged from taking on heavy roles (it is quite easy to do yourself damage if you’re not careful, even outside of early vocal development). That doesn’t mean, however, that they aren’t actively learning how to use their instrument. There are a wealth of graduates who, subsequently, dive straight into the professional scene by way of Young Artist Programs. Though not yet physically mature, they still have a massive head-start, especially by the time the get to be /my/ age and have already spent six years in the industry, under apprenticeship or even making the main-stage. I’m not saying this to dismiss my own potential, I just like to be realistic; if that’s the route I take, competition is going to be stiff and I’ll have my work cut-out for me (I think it would be a fun challenge though!).</p>

<p>Singersmom07 - You’re absolutely right that getting another bachelor’s would be a waste of time at most places, but I know of at least one person who was able to get a second bachelor’s (in music, no less) without having to take any coursework outside of her area of study. The tricky part is finding the programs that are willing to accommodate me as such. My searches thus far have only turned up only Jacobs and their website indicates that, while it is a possibility, it is generally not advised. </p>

<p>As for jumping straight to a Master’s, I concur that Westminster is only one data point and I currently have my feelers out to learn more; this thread is but one of them! </p>

<p>Somewhere buried in the mass of text in my previous posts (and bless anybody who’s actually taken the time to read through these treatises!), I mentioned that I’m already in two competitive choruses, but I’ll definitely be on the lookout for other singing gigs! I am coming to increasingly appreciate just how important networking can be.</p>

<p>BassDad - Thank you so much for the kind words! I actually started college an English major, but discovered that my enthusiasm for language (with the exception of composition) was better served in broader, more concrete, terms (hence, linguistics), than it was in divining intent from literary abstractions.</p>

<p>Violincello - Thanks for the advice! If you read my response to Singersmom07, you’ve probably gathered that Jacobs is indeed on my list of prospects, but I didn’t really have any sort of inside scoop; that is very encouraging to hear! If I do go out to Indiana, it’ll definitely not be in the spur-of-the-moment and under-prepared manner I went to Westminster. </p>

<p>I can’t wait to start voice lessons again; if I can brush up on a few things, Nemico Della Patria seems a particularly good candidate, maybe I can make a decent showing out there before this year’s application deadline (December 1st). If I’m going to do that, however, I need to start planning and preparing NOW. I’ll also probably need a point of contact; do you have any suggestions?</p>

<p>I’ve sent you a PM</p>

<p>I am not particularly knowledgeable about voice, so what I am offering needs to be tempered by those who know more (there are some knowledgeable people with voice on here). My assessment on your talent level is correct, that it is unlikely that having followed the path you are talking about, that you would be ready for high end professional auditions at places like the Met and such. One note on the teacher who encouraged you, not all music teachers, even ones who studied with X and Y, did Z, are going to be good judges of where you stand. And with music, ‘natural talent’ is not enough, to gain the kind of level it takes to be professionally proficient in today’s music world simply takes a lot of work and time to gain the mastery; whether it is Gladwell’s magic ‘10,000 hours’ or some other number, it can’t be bypassed. The same way you cannot take anyone and make them an opera singer or musician by hard work and time, someone who has the natural talents to do so won’t do it without work. Here are my thoughts:</p>

<p>-Get an assessment from someone else who is knowledgeable, if a teacher at a music school or someone who auditions singers, to get an idea of where you stand. If for anything else, to give yourself piece of mind, that your teacher either wasn’t kidding, or was totally clueless, you would know, plus they may be able to suggest the kinds of things you need to do.</p>

<p>-I don’t think a UG degree would be valuable at this point, and I question the grad school idea, especially since you plan on staying on working as a teacher. With academic subjects, grad programs are often at night, but with music from my (very limited exposure), I am not so certain you could work during the day and do it at night, I don’t believe many if any are geared that way (I very easily could be wrong). I am talking performance here, not academic music. You could probably find classes like music theory,history and so forth that would be available to you if you felt you needed it., on their own.</p>

<p>-Without meaning to denigrate your current teacher, if they aren’t really up to date with the professional world these days (and many may not), you may want to try and find a private teacher who is active in the music world today, who either performs or has close contact with people who perform or things like managers and such at operas and so forth. Among other things, they can help you navigate what you need to do, they know what is important and what isn’t if you seriously want to sing professionally…</p>

<p>-The other thing is to find as many singing opportunities as possible, without obviously straining your voice or wasting your time. There are a lot of high level ‘amateur’ choral groups and choruses in this country and the level in more then a few of them is nothing to sneeze at IME…among other things, giives you a taste of what performing is like, the preparation needed and so forth, and also may help either feed the fire or tell you “hey, I think I can live with expressing music this way, I don’t need to go further”, or whatever. </p>

<p>Hopefully this helps even a little bit, take it with an obvious grain or two or pound of salt.</p>

<p>Some general points of clarification before I get into the body of my response (I’ve mentioned these before, but they’ve probably been lost in the preceding masses of text):</p>

<ul>
<li> I AM actively looking into finding a new instructor AND getting in-person professional feedback but, while that will inform my ultimate decisions, it doesn’t fall under the scope of this forum. As such, while I welcome advice in this regard, send it via private message.</li>
<li> The purpose of this thread is to ennumerate options (of which a good few have been presented) for a person in an unconventional position to continue pursuing music/voice ACADEMICALLY (advice/commentary regarding my career prospects and/or singing opportunities are welcome, but again, should probably be moved to private message).</li>
<li> My passion for education will inform my decisions, as will my financial considerations, but I AM willing to put teaching on the back-burner for the time being if that proves necessary (I’m trying to determine whether it is).</li>
<li> Again, here are some guiding questions:
What continuing-ed/non-degree/online options could be worked around a job?
What BM programs allow second-degree candidates without unnecessary courses?
What MM programs are open to considering candidates such as myself?</li>
</ul>

<hr>

<p>No need to denigrate /yourself/, musicprnt; your response was well articulated and thought-out. In fact, the perspective you bring is more in line with my own outlook than you might realize. I do fear, though, that I have provided you an inadequate lens via which to assess my situation; as with many things in life, if I could restart this thread, I would have framed things differently. I’ve had half a mind to close this one out, but thoughtful feedback like yours has kept me from doing so.</p>

<p>The first thing I’d hoped to have imparted, that I may not have done adequately, is my shared belief in the principle behind the “10,000 Rule.” In fact, it is the strength of this conviction that has led me to shortchanging myself a wee bit in this conversation; truly accepting that “talent” is primarily the manifestation of concerted effort comes with an inherent humility, for there will always be those who have invested a life’s worth of effort in any particular endeavor. While we can’t compete with those people, we can certainly learn from them and assimilate what we can of their qualities we admire.</p>

<p>In this vein, however, there are a couple fundamental differences between voice and other instruments that work out in my favor; both of these stem from other instruments serving as an “equalizer.” The first consideration is that there is a much greater capacity for developing proficiency in voice passively (putting in hours toward that big 10k). Sure, an experienced juggler might find it somewhat easier to pick up the piano than his non-juggling compatriot (there are plenty of transferable skills, like manual dexterity and a rhythmic understanding, that you can develop away from the ivory) but the advantage would be comparatively nominal. </p>

<p>The difference is, /everyone/ has a voice and is using it constantly. That doesn’t mean everyone uses it well and are secretly developing into opera singers, but we’re not talking monkeys writing Shakespeare either. There is physiological feedback if you listen/feel for it, but, in general, people are unlikely to “happen upon” good technique without guidance.</p>

<p>I’ve mentioned that I’ve done my best to fill every spare minute of the past two, getting on three, years with music (and, rest assured, I will continue to do so!), but that wasn’t the start of my development. I’ve only begun to formally explore singing, but I’ve been curious about my own voice since I was a child and have literally never stopped playing with it to see what it can do (to this day, my brother asks me “why are you always making weird noises?”). </p>

<p>When I was studying linguistics, I was fascinated by our discussion of formants in phonetics and how the human voice resonates at different harmonics, with the capacity to generate a rich overtone series that varies dynamically with changing vowels; needless to say I spent inordinate amounts of time exploring that for myself. More recently, I’ve been investigating voice science and how spectrogram analysis can inform my singing.</p>

<p>A person can learn to play the guitar “by ear” through persistence and experimentation, but that person would first need a guitar (getting back to instruments equalizing); I’ve had my voice all along. Again, as I hope is apparent, “playing around” isn’t an efficient way to attain mastery and taking a structured approach is something I highly value, hence this thread. My point is, if you pick up the bassoon, you’re going to start near the 0 mark toward your 10k; I’m significantly further along, but I’m excited by how much further I have to go!</p>

<p>The second manner in which other instruments equalize is that their capacity and quality is fairly universal. I’m not saying that every piano is a Steinway, but there are a discrete set of notes on a piano and, while you may bring something different to the table physiologically or psychologically, you have to channel whatever you bring into a functional skill-set that would serve you equally well in making an upright or a grand piano sing (relative to their respective capacities to do so). </p>

<p>With voice, however, there is a great deal more variability in the instrument itself and you have to work with what you have. I’m not saying that certain people are blessed with an internal Stradivarius (and, even if they were, a Stradivarius in the hands of an amateur wouldn’t sound great), but that some people are born with a viola and some a violin (some a double bass!); the mechanics of operation may be similar, but the timber, range and other qualities can be dramatically different.</p>

<p>I’m off in abstraction, but not without a point: if I were your average soprano, with my lack of experience I’d have a very uphill run indeed (well, aside from the fact that I’m a man and soprano-range counter-tenors are all the rage these days :-P). I am, however, a baritone with some heft/resonance (plenty of squillo) and a higher-than-average tessitura (I have a strong and comfortable F#4), which is sufficiently uncommon that, if I worked hard at it, it’d be easier to earn a career than people in most other fachs. Don’t take this the wrong way (I’m not nearly deluded enough to think I’m even remotely at that level or even in sight of such a lofty position), but even the Met* is hurting for Verdi baritones (if that’s indeed the fach I settle into). </p>

<p>Embellishing upon the earlier analogy: imagine a world where you’re born biologically connected to an instrument, that people born with a viola are uncommon (violins are in over-abundance), and that those who subsequently invest in their instrument are rarer still; it’d be a lot easier to get a spot in a string quartet for a voilist in that scenario (a lot of opera companies have had to resign themselves to having their violinists and cellists play the viola line)! That, in itself, wouldn’t make the violist a good musician, but, having that start can snowball into something bigger (per Gladwell and hockey players born in January). </p>

<p>Again, this thread was not intended as a discussion of my career prospects (without hearing me, as many have pointed out, that would be a fruitless endeavor), but rather the academic options available to me at this point (what BM, non-degree, continuing education and MM programs are open to me and what are their relative merits?). That the former has dominated the conversation, in many respects, is why I think I might be better served starting another, more focused thread. However, as people have taken the time to provide insight on the matter, I figured I’ve owed them a response and clarification as a token of my appreciation (and, if the thousands of words I’ve written here are any indication, I have appreciated it very much indeed).</p>

<p>So, getting back to those clarifications, getting assessment from more (and, potentially, more informed) individuals is definitely a top priority for me, as I have indicated before (and has been an overriding theme of this thread). I’m afraid I’ve downplayed the amount that this has been a factor already and, in failing to expound upon this, I’ve done my voice instructor a disservice, as it would seem I’ve unintentionally painted him (judging from the responses I’ve been getting) as something of a fawning lack-wit. I tried to dispel the “lack-wit” part by indicating his pedigree (one does not get to work with incredible musicians like that and sustain a professional career in opera without a broad understanding), but it would seem I should have addressed the “fawning.”</p>

<p>He is not the only person who has heard me and been encouraging: I have received top marks in all my juries in the past two years (my voice instructor was obviously not on those panels), I have earned merit-based performance scholarships every semester after I started lessons (auditioned before different panels), and have been consistently selected for master classes. I like to temper this with the qualification that I’ve been in a small pond, but, even so, if every member of the music faculty at my university who has appraised my performance suggests considering career possibilities (I’m not inferring this, the panels provide direct feedback to the performers afterwards), it’s probably safe to say that my voice instructor isn’t delusional. </p>

<p>What I was trying to convey is that I think I’d be better served taking the enthusiasm of others (and I’ve been met with encouragement from professionals outside my university as well) with a grain of salt, not because I don’t value those peoples opinions, but because self-improvement is served better elsewise. Namely, looking critically at where you could be even better, acknowledging shortcomings, and doing your best to address both, is a much more effective strategy than revelling in the praise of others (that IS a path to delusion). My 10,000 hours aren’t complete (besides, that’s only a start; it’s equivalent to working full-time for 5 years) and I’m on this forum because I’m not content to be completing these hours willy-nilly any longer.</p>

<hr>

<p>*A point of clarification with respect to the Met auditions: the name is a misnomer and it would be more aptly labeled a competition. It is definitely a high prestige and particularly fierce competition, but it’s ostensibly open-call (whether you’re liable to make it past district, much less regionals, without a significant resume and connections is a source of some debate/controversy) and the reward is a cash-prize, not a role on the main-stage. </p>

<p>The intention behind my instructor’s “audition for the Met,” that I tried to clarify earlier, was that I should focus on honing my craft /as a singer/ (rather than “wasting time” in academia), so that I can make my way directly into the competition circuit (I don’t think he thought the Met was a short-term goal), where an artist who hasn’t experience, like myself, has some chance of making a name for himself. My instructor had significant success taking this route himself.</p>

<p>So how do you feel about focusing on your craft versus academia? My first impression was that you have a strong desire to study academic music, and maybe even felt insecure because you haven’t done enough of that, in your view.</p>

<p>If it were possible, with the talent and type of voice you have, to make it more directly into professional vocal performance, would you do that?</p>

<p>In other words, would, say, a master’s be a means to an end, or an end in itself, so to speak? If it is a means to an end, then it would seem you could take another, more direct route, from what you have written.</p>

<p>I do not know a lot about voice, so I am just responding to your posts.</p>

<p>Honing my craft and pursuing music academically are so interconnected that I’d feel I’d be slighting myself if I didn’t keep my education ongoing in some respect. That having been said, Young Artist Programs are akin to apprenticeships in many ways and, depending on the program, may involve intensive training in language and other skills pertinent to a career in opera.</p>

<p>To more directly answer your question, I’m not at a point where I’m sufficiently informed to decide to directly pursue professional performance and, even if I were to pursue that option, it is not a pressing consideration. The primary audition window is drawing to a close so it would be most of a year before many significant opportunities in that arena would be open again.</p>

<p>Application deadlines for degree programs are rapidly approaching, however, and, while it’s premature to declare intent for a professional career at this point, my desire to learn everything I can about music is definitely a very clear objective (if a life-long one). It might eventually serve as a stepping stone to a professional career, but learning more is invariably, for me, an end in itself.</p>

<p>That’s what I thought, from your posts. Good luck with applications and/or finding the best way to learn what you want to learn! And with singing, of course.</p>