<p>I am also curious as to whether it makes a difference if the girl ran away, vs. getting kicked out by her parents. Or, whether if she did initially run away, if her parents setting rules for her return, makes a difference.</p>
<p>And continuing my rambling thoughts–since she is 18–if she had chosen to drop out of high school, can the parents compel her to finish high school? Or can parents compel a child to go to college?</p>
<p>This case could be going in to some very interesting areas.</p>
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<p>Well, clearly that’s not the case as the judge ruled that they did not have to pay the high school tuition.</p>
<p>As stated earlier, according to affidavits the parents submitted to the court, their contract stipulated that they COULD withdraw her for the spring as long as they were current on fall tuition.</p>
<p>^^^</p>
<p>As I noted in a previous post in this thread, here in Indiana a NCP can be ordered by the court to pay the maximum value of an IS public. I’m guessing here the highest cost public is Purdue with a TCOA of about $21,000/year, so the max that will be ordered by the court is $10,5000.</p>
<p>Also with college support, just as in child support here, a spreadsheet with all expenses and the income of both parents is submitted to the court along with verification of each. In my case, since my son was awarded a full tutition scholarship, even though he is OOS, I requested 50% of the costs of course fees, room and board, and books, which amounted to about $5,600, well under the max of $10,5000. However in my case the judge opted to simply rule that my son’s father owed 53% of costs based on our incomes since such costs could vary each year and should prevent the need to return to court to renegotiate (although I wouldn’t have wasted the time and energy unless costs changed dramatically). </p>
<p>I definitely think a court ruling that a family has an obligation to pay their EFC to send their kid to an expensive private would be overstepping its bounds, but I still think there is a double standard set if courts rule that NCP have an obligation to pay $5-15,000 for half the costs of their IS flagship and then rule that a married couple is not obligated to pay anything at all. It seems that if legally NJ holds any parent accountable for college costs, that then needs to apply to all parents. I also found it interesting that in NJ a child is not considered emancipated just because they turned 18, which I think is a very important factor in this case. </p>
<p>This case reminds me of a local high school student who has been arrested for murder of a local man who was out on his evening walk and was killed for his phone.
Initially the local weekly reported the teen was homeless, but actually he had two parents, he just wanted to do whatever he wanted. </p>
<p>Teens often get to a point where they think they know it all and don’t have to play by the rules.</p>
<p>I often “ran away” when I was a teen, because I wanted to hang out with my friends who didn’t have any supervision, because they had a single mom who was always at her boyfriends house.
Because of this, I tend to side with the parents when they seem genuinely distraught.
Teens can be little s*^+s & it seems this girl meets that description.</p>
<p>@ Nrdsb4 </p>
<p>The judge ruled that the parents did not have to pay tutition because the school had already agreed not to charge tutition for this semester and to raise funds on her behalf making it a moot point. The judge really only ruled that there was no urgent need to provide funding that the girls support and education were currently being provided for and put off making any type of ruling until next month.</p>
<p>This is the transcript of a voice mail the daughter left for her mother (found on page 61 of the court documents). I have replaced the " F" word and the “SH” word in order to conform to the terms of service.</p>
<p>Apparently the mom was concerned that her daughter was throwing up her food after eating (D has/had eating disorder);</p>
<p>“Hi mom just to let you know you’re a real effing winner aren’t you you think you’re so cool and you think you caught me throwing up in the bathroom after eating an egg frittatta, yeah sorry that you have problems now and you need to harp on mine because I didn’t and I actually took a xxxxx which I really just wanna xxxx all over your face right now because it looks like that anyway, anyway I effing hate you and um I’ve written you off so don’t talk to me don’t do anything I’m blocking you from just about everything, have a nice life, bye mom.”</p>
<p>In his affidavit, the father said that the D is particularly disrespectful to the mother. I’m sure the parents have made mistakes, but the above voice mail illustrates to me that this kid isn’t just an innocent party in this mess.</p>
<p>^^^ yes thats very disrespectful and obviously D has issues, but this is a parenting fail. No one promised them a perfect, obedient child. They are still parents. The fact that she ends up in court tells me the parents have utterly failed in every other way to find some compromise for their D. </p>
<p>The place of failure might not be just these parents - but the parents you have all around you. I live in this area of NJ and the privilege extended to the HS and up crowd is appalling. She has friends whose parents supply their parties with alcohol, who drive them to these parties and bring them home whenever they feel like coming back. They go on great vacations - and the drinking is allowed there too. It is very hard to enforce good old fashioned house rules, curfew and consequences when your parental peers are not. Have you seen the movie “Mean Girls?” This is it - “I’m a cool mom” is all over the place here. I had my dd go on a playdate when she was 10 and brag when she came home “We had virgin margeritas, we should have them at home!” People are under the misconception that if they don’t “teach” kids how to drink in HS, to get used to managing how much alcohol gets them drunk, that they will go off to college and binge drink. </p>
<p>This is an awful situation for any family but I am sort of glad these issues have been aired in the courtroom and now in the court of public opinion because, quite frankly, the judges and advocacy groups have gone too far with their interference in family matters. I realize that the Canning case is not a matter of divorce but as other posters have said, this case may have a significant impact on divorce laws across the U.S., particularly in New Jersey. In the best of all worlds, family members would unanimously agree on what’s in a child’s best interest…but we all know that doesn’t happen. So what to do when spouses or ex-spouse don’t agree, or when parents and children disagree? See a pastor, priest, rabbi or therapist? Sure. But get the courts out of it!!! And when a child turns 18? That’s it!!! At 18 they can elope, sign and be held accountable for contracts, they can enter the armed forces, etc. Yeah, they can’t consume alcohol these days and in some states they can’t partake of tobacco. Well, that inconsistency is just nonsense, if we as a society mean what we say about having adult responsibilities at the age of majority. The courts are not the place for EVERY family dispute regarding children. Going to court simply guarantees billable hours for attorneys.</p>
<p>As the parent of two teens, 19 and 17, I have to say… this story is not that far fetched to me. It makes me incredibly sad… but there are days when I swear my son has been taken over by aliens. He has a lot of rage and my husband and I just look at each other… “Where did this come from?” He makes bad decision after bad decison and blames us. It is truly strange. Fortunately we do have another child or I would seriously question our parenting skills. One to keep you humble, one to give you hope. That is what a dear friend told me.</p>
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Me too. Absolutely.</p>
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</p>
<p>I don’t think it is a double standard. When parents are not divorced, the couple has legal custody of the child and can make decisions together regarding college education.</p>
<p>When parents are divorced, CP has legal custody and is the one making final decision regarding college education of the child. The NCP still has financial responsibility and thus is required to contribute. </p>
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<p>That would describe my 16-year old. Thankfully, he does not blame us and I cannot imagine him talking to me like that girl talked to her mom.</p>
<p>And I do know all about bad influences. In our case it was his friends, who he now is prohibited to see. While I will not kick him out of the house if he decides to see them, there will be significant consequences for him, including loss of the use of the car, loss of financial support for anything beyond necessities, etc. My son already lost cell phone privileges as well as doing anything outside of school, work and family activities, so he knows we are very serious.</p>
<p>Even with everything we have to go through with our son, I cannot imagine him ever making the demands the NJ girl is making to her parents. </p>
<p>Mitchklong, most parents feel it’s a huge fail on their part when ANYTHING goes wrong with their kids, but I have seen parents raise any number of children wonderfully, and there is a fail with one of them who claims s/he was abused and mistreated. We all make our mistakes, as do our kids, but short of actual evidence of abuse for which the parents have been cleared, there are no rules set in stone. Young people entering adulthood often have mood and emotional issues, sometimes temporary (I consider it a growing pain in the temporary insanity area), some times a sign of other more serous issues. Without being there, it’s impossible to point fingers anywhere. I think the judge is trying to force a reconciliation here, and send the message that no funds to support this decision are likely to be forthcoming to the young woman and the family that took her in. I’m sure this ruling is something that the young woman, her friends/friends parents/attorneys are discussing. THis, to me, appears to be a power play on the part of this student which is being enabled by another adult Few, if any kids, could have pushed things this far on their own. An adult with resources has to be able to provide the support. THat is the part that is astounding to me. </p>
<p>Even to require parents to fill out FAFSA is a tough go. A lot of private info there one is asking to be released, and made available to the student and the schools. It’s not that simple of a thing. I would support this only if the actual numbers can be kept under wraps with only the EFC and the student section made available to the student. Such a ruling would only help those kids who do end up qualifying for financial aid, and really it doesn’t end with the FAFSA filing as verifications have to also be honored. As of now the unsub Direct Loan is available
for those whose parents refuse to fill out the FAFSA, though not easily. In this case, the student could probably petition for independent student status and have a decent chance of getting it. However, getting full need met is not going to a slam dunk, if UDel is her school of choice. THey don’t tend to meet need for their own state residents. </p>
<p>lerkin, we started out giving our son $200/mo in spending money at college. He lost that. His girlfriend is a total loser, drugs, not welcome in our home. ( the stuff she puts on twitter-omg) He has lost use of the car, phone will be next. He quit the 10 hr. week job he had at school - wouldnt get up in the morning and go… At this point I will be surprised if he goes back in the Fall. Like I orginally said, this NJ story is not that far fetched to me. I dont feel like I know him anymore, incredibly sad. We tell him that we love him and that we will be “here” for him… but he does have to do some basic things like not get in my face and swear at me, my husband, quit smoking ( but he wants us to pay for his expensive asthma meds and DR. visits) , on and on… there is no respect. WE are a very normal loving family… my husband and I joke it must have been one too many family vacations…My 17 yr old daughter sides with us. So… he is in counseling at school, next up will be family counseling. I hope this NJ family will do the same.</p>
<ol>
<li><p>In much of the world, for much of human history, it was not the norm for older teens to live with their families day in and day out and to be financially dependent on them. It seems to work OK in Europe most of the time, but we are still learning how to manage it. It’s a function of high school completion and higher education becoming the norm rather than the exception, terrible entry-level job markets, increased urbanization, high cost urban housing, high cost college (and in many communities, as here, high cost high school), and, frankly, everyone thinking that’s how it should be. It wasn’t so long ago that a much higher percentage of people who went to college went to boarding school to prepare for it. The vast majority of people survive the current cultural norm unscathed, but there are lots of situations where that’s not the case, and this is one of them.</p></li>
<li><p>My mother’s family (which is basically the clan I belong to) is a very close extended family. She and her first cousins (and parents, uncles, aunts of course) all grew up on the same block, and most of them lived most of their lives in the city where they grew up, more or less walking distance from one another. Lots of love, lots of high achievement (and some not, of course), barely any divorces.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>In that family, it was not at all uncommon for late teens to move in with relatives for a while when they were having conflict with their parents. My mother and her mother – who, by the time I could pay attention to things, loved each other completely – spent much of my mother’s high school years at each other’s throats. My mother spent long stretches of time living with her uncle, aunt and cousins next door to her mother. (Her father died when she was 14, and she was the youngest, her sister and brother already away at college. Her brother went to college a year early, though.) One of my second cousins spent her senior year of high school living with my family. Things were chaotic in her house and she needed peace and quiet. My youngest sister never stopped sleeping at home most nights, but there were months and months when she would go to some cousins’ house from school and come home only at bedtime. My family took in an exchange student who came for six weeks and stayed for five and a half years, through college. I spent a year in high school living with a family abroad. (I didn’t hate my family ever, but when I came back from Spain all my friends hated their families.) Some of my cousins spent time living with their grandparents.</p>
<p>These were not sturm und drang situations; no one went to court. No one left vulgar voicemails (in no small part because voicemail didn’t exist at the time, but also because tempers were not running that high). The parents all knew and trusted one another, and everyone kept things low key. Staying with cousins wasn’t running away or being defiant. Kids weren’t ever not speaking to their parents, or boycotting their real home. Anyway, the system worked extremely well. I don’t know that it takes a village to raise a child, but sometimes if you try to keep it all inside the nuclear family, there’s a risk you will achieve critical mass and things will go, well, nuclear.</p>
<p>I think many kids go off the rails during the teenage years. It’s hard. Part of me actually thinks it is the hormonal changes that make them so erratic. They can really be irrational at times. The key is not to get so worn down that you give up on imposing the consequences consistently. Sometimes I have to talk myself into the following through when I think about the fight that is going to ensue when I take away privileges. Some days you just soldier on. And I have pretty decent kids that really have not give us all that much trouble. But the day to day back and forth is difficult. Small things somehow turn into major battles. I am exhausted!</p>
<p>ldavis,</p>
<p>I am sorry you have to go through this. I think I understand how it makes you feel - helpless. And maybe as parents we did not do everything right, but in the end we cannot make them realize how self-destructing their behavior is. They have to do it on their own.</p>
<p>Hang on there. Eventually it will happen, hopefully before he hits rock bottom. I saw similar situations with other families. If the parents give the kids the tools to succeed, eventually kids decide to use them. </p>
<p>In my personal experience, my son had to sink to a very low point before something clicked in his head. I don’t want to go into details, but while he was always very respectful to us, he did some other things, including those that have very severe consequences in life (far worse than swearing at his parents). Luckily for him, he got caught very soon after he started doing it, and I think it scared him. It remains to be seen if he will change his ways (everything came to a head only several weeks ago), but I am hopeful (and much more vigilant).</p>
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</p>
<p>I do sometimes think that he does not appreciate all the opportunities we’ve given to him. We are going on a cruise with our younger daughter this month without him. I don’t think he deserves to go and I told him so. Even though I already paid for him, I have no qualms to let him stay behind. </p>
<p>The thing is, it is not the first time he lost his vacation/trip privileges. Last school year he was supposed to go on a confirmation trip to NY. I found out about his lies several hours before the trip. He was not allowed to go on a trip, even though I’ve been told by others that I should have allowed him to have that once in a lifetime experience. </p>
<p>Back in ‘the day’, my parents agreed to pay for my undergrad years in full at the in state, public school of my choice. Not knowing there were any other options available (the internet didn’t exist back then and the only classmate I knew that was getting assistance for school was attending West Point) I chose the least objectionable option.</p>
<p>My parents and I had a strained relationship through my teenage years. I thought I was a good kid. I was a VERY good student, I didn’t drink or take any type of drugs, I had no boyfriend, I didn’t even have a curfew because I was rarely out past dinner time, but my parents still tried to micromanage my life and as a teen when you are emotionally and hormonally ready to break away and be independent that’s hard to deal with. I’m sure they thought they were making the best decisions. I was their oldest and none of their siblings had kids, so I was the ‘experiment’. Even now although we get along to a degree our relationship is still strained, but both my parents have a much better relationship with my younger sister.</p>
<p>I developed an eating disorder my senior year of high school. I lost close to 70 pounds in less than 9 months. I’m not certain anyone other than my mother was ever concerned. All I remember hearing was support about how good I looked. Instead of seeking outside help, my mother continued to try to micromanage me. I’m 5’8" and weighed right about 100 pounds when I graduated from high school. I’m confident if I hadn’t escaped the environment by leaving for college that I would have wound up hospitalized within a few months.</p>
<p>When I went away to college, my parents continued to try to micromanage my life, but then felt their only power was money. I believe I heard almost weekly, “If you don’t do…, we’re going to stop paying your bills” or “If you do…, don’t expect any more money from us.” It gets EXHAUSTING! My college years consisted of a lot of hiding stuff from my parents that I knew they wouldn’t approve of and I still never did anything ‘THAT’ bad. OK, I drank a few times…I was even drunk…<em>once</em> (yes, <em>once</em> during my entire college career)…still never did any kind of drugs, was still a really good student, and didn’t start dating anyone until my junior year. I’m sure they felt like they were doing what they needed to so I would make good choices…so I would live by their rules…so I would become who they wanted me to me, but it did very long term damage to our relationship.</p>
<p>At one point my mother forbade me from visiting her parents during the holidays because my father had not agreed with some of my choices. I thought of going anyway (I was a young adult with a car at the time), but wound up giving in to her demand, it was the first time in my life I hadn’t seen my grandparents during the holiday season, it devestated me. I didn’t speak to either of my parents at any point during the following calendar year until my mother eventually had my younger sister mediate a reconcilliation.</p>
<p>It definitely takes a strong person to raise a teenager! </p>
<p>In the course of raising my son I’ve lost count of the number of times I’ve heard, “You know I hate you, right?”…I always respond with, “Yes, I know, I love you too!” My son’s a good kid…most of the time. But he makes some choices I don’t agree with. He’s started smoking, he told me it seems like that’s what college kids do. I’ve told him I’m not a fan. He’s gotten speeding tickets. He had a poor semester acadmically because he wasn’t always motivated to go to class. I try never to threaten with money. It’d left such a bad taste in my mouth when I was growing up, but I have to admit that I have. Especially regarding academic performance…I’ve told my son if his grades don’t improve this semester, he WILL NOT be going back to school. Would I carry through with that? Probably not, unless he did REALLY bad. His future is far too important to me, I wouldn’t want to have any part in jeopardizing it. But I guess I do want him to think I’d carry through with it. :)</p>
<p>It definitely takes a strong person to raise a teenager!!</p>
<p>The sad truth I’m guessing is that this girl will get nothing. A girl who had a private high school education, a new car, physical and mental help to overcome anorexia/bulimia…constrasted with apparently numerous incidents of bad behavior that the parents put up with (speeding, drinking etc.) and she is such a spoiled little brat she runs away from home, gets some legal advice and decides to sue her parents. I predict she gets nothing except the court requiring her parents to fill out a FAFSA and if I were her parents I’d let her live on her own for a couple years before I forked out any money at all for any college and hope she grows up alittle. She is first and foremost a spoiled brat. Whether she grew up in a wackadoodle town where kids live on long, long leashes and parents turn a blind eye as long as the kids go to a good college or not should have no bearing on the court decision.</p>