<p>Maybe the benefits are simply hard to measure…</p>
<p>From a recent article in the Chronicle of Higher Education.</p>
<p>"Three new studies of college freshmen suggest that even the most promising can run into academic difficulties as a long-term consequence of experiences like attending a violent or run-down high school or being raised by parents who never went to college.</p>
<p>And two of the studies call into question a large body of research on the educational benefits of racial and ethnic diversity on campuses, concluding that most first-year students do not reap any gains from diversity that can be measured objectively.</p>
<p>Taken together, the studies not only challenge many of the assumptions colleges make in admitting and educating freshmen but could also influence discussions of how to improve the nations high schools to promote college preparation."</p>
<p>…“low-income freshmen tended to post lower grades if their high schools had high levels of violence or disorder, or had enrollments that were heavily black or Hispanic, or had a high percentage of students with limited proficiency in English.”</p>
<p>Well, if gains from a diverse environment aren’t measurable after one year, that challenges some assumptions–but it doesn’t tell us what happens over the entire college experience.</p>
<p>The other finding is just more evidence that higher ed–and society in general–has to solve the K-12 problems before it can really solve the under-representativeness of certain groups in college, grad school, and certain career fields. Giving disadvantaged students a chance at college isn’t enough–you have got to solve the issues they are facing in their high schools. That’s a big, troubling challenge.</p>
<p>Just think of how silly that argu sounds in terms of gender and coeducation! What were the objective measurable academic benefits to the male students when Dartmouth enrolled its first coed class? (Notice I said “academic benefits,” thus excluding “goody, we don’t have to bus up girls from Bennington, So. Hadley and Northapton.”)</p>
<p>“you have got to solve the issues they are facing in their high schools. That’s a big, troubling challenge.”</p>
<p>Hoedown, your language is such that it seems to indicate it’s a problem for all of us, and it’s up to all of us to solve it. While it is certainly a problem for all of us, for a long time we’ve been treating such problems as things that can be “solved” by outsiders, with little improvement. Is it possible there are some problems that simply have to be solved by the downtrodden themselves, or not at all? I’m not “blaming the victims.” I’m treating them like thinking human beings who make choices every day, some of which improve their situation, some of which don’t. And as long as society keeps acting like it’s the government’s responsibiltiy or colleges’ responsibiltiy, the downtrodden will be lulled into thinking it’s not their own responsibiltiy, and some members will take a more passive role in improving their situation.</p>
<p>I guess that’s one way to read my comments, but that’s not my meaning. Society and academe can help improve the school experience WITHOUT precluding that students and their families play a role in getting the most out of what’s available. </p>
<p>Wanting outsiders to care doesn’t imply the insiders should be passive. That’s a good reminder for people who worry about the K-12 issues from afar. I think anyone truly close to the problem would find it hard to discount the efforts (or, in some cases lack thereof) of the people who are there on the ground, doing the teaching and the learning.</p>
<p>Maybe grades aren’t the only measure of success in college. I had a much richer college experience for the ethnic diversity on my campus (I am white). I learned to relate to certain ethnic groups that I previously had no experience with. This has made a marked difference in my ability to interact productively as a professional with Indians, Koreans, Japanese, Chinese as well as a few European ethnicities. This ability, while not reflected in my grades, particularly not my first year grades, is an important part of my preparation for adult life.</p>
<p>If you are smart, you will move to a better school system.</p>
<p>another exerpt</p>
<p>"looked at how high-school experiences influence the academic success of students at several highly selective colleges.</p>
<p>Using data on about 2,500 students taken from the National Longitudinal Survey of Freshmen, which is overseen by Princeton University’s Office of Population Research, the two researchers found that students who enter college with comparable academic records and family backgrounds can have different levels of success in their freshman year, depending on their high-school environment. Those who attended high schools with relatively high levels of violence, for example, tended on average to have lower grades than other freshmen. Having attended a well-maintained and well-equipped high school also appears, in itself, to offer many freshmen advantages over their peers, the study found."</p>
<p>I don’t think diversity should be expected to enhance intellectual growth. It is supposed to enhance character development.</p>
<p>another exerpt</p>
<p>"And, in a finding that contradicts much of the available research on racial and ethnic diversity in higher education, Mr. Herzog found that about the only educational benefit associated with exposure to black, Hispanic, and American Indian students was that it appeared to increase the likelihood that other students from those racial and ethnic groups would stay in college to complete their degrees.</p>
<p>Using objective measures of learning, Mr. Herzog did not find any evidence that being exposed to diversity in their classrooms or taking classes intended to promote appreciation of diversity fostered students’ cognitive growth."</p>
<p>Duh. What else would you expect? And does it really matter? How big are the differences and are these students still learning and passing their classes? Because as I see it, this is the first step in getting low income, first gen, URM, etc. students into the college environment. Are all of the impacts of lousy primary and secondary schools expected to automatically change once these students are admitted to college? These things take time, likely more on the scale of generations than years. And I agree with hoedown that better efforts a the K-12 level would yield higher gains than trying to deal with these issues at the college level.</p>
<p>Hoe, I’m glad that’s not what you meant. I hope you’re right that the government and colleges can help the situation, but certainly the heavy lifting has to be done by the downtrodden themselves. I see the “Katrina Syndrome” everywhere–“the floodwaters are rising up through the floor in my living room, and it’s George Bush’s fault that I’m here, and his responsibility to get me out,” rather than “the water is flooding my house, I better save my butt.”</p>
It takes being exposed to diversity, and what we aren’t familiar with, to really see the value and benefit from diversity. It’s quick to assume that statistical information gives the whole picture, but it really doesn’t. If the purpose of college is to bring like minded people together, to educate them, how does that support any growth, when questioning and a different point of view(which is often added by diversity) is the number one way to challenge ignorance(sorry for the strong word, but many don’t know how much they don’t know unless they’re made aware of it by their own realization)?</p>
<p>I completely agree with Hoedown, the problem is at the K-12 level. But this is an extremely difficult problem to solve. In DC, Michelle Rhee, the young education chancellor probably knows now with firsthand experience why the DC K-12 system is so terrible. The system has been terrible for many years, she’s trying to change the way things are done, but there’s resistance from parents, students, teachers and everybody else, and they all say how they want things to get better, but nobody is willing to compromise or give up anything.</p>
<p>regardless of the k-12 problem(which i agree is a problem) there’s basics that has nothing to do with the level of education of a person that brings diversity. tell me what its like to be raised as britney spears’ son, and tell me what it’s like to be raised as the child of a hooker in south central los angeles or any inner city. you can’t because diversity goes beyond statistical information.</p>
<p>This is to be expected. These are high schools that face many challenges in terms of maintaining order and coping with the needs of low-income or limited-English-proficiency students, while simultaneously trying to teach the curriculum. Chances are, the college freshmen coming from such schools are not as well-prepared academically as those who come from high schools where the faculty and administration can focus most of their efforts on academics.</p>
<p>I thought the Katrina Syndrome was used in reference to the oil industry. </p>
<p>How widespread is this so-called school-related “Katrina Syndrome” – you claim you see it “everywhere”-- can you expand on that? Everywhere in your school district, or more widely? Are these students, parents, or educators saying this? Is this based on personal interviews, conversations, or some opinion surveys? </p>
<p>Primarily, I hope we could meld the best of theory, research, advocacy, and initiatives (these are the kinds of things I want higher ed to assist with) with the efforts and will of students, K-12 faculty, parents. </p>
<p>In response to several posts here–I don’t understand the tendency to blame the underprivileged for lack of initiative, as if this is some special characteristic they have (laziness, lack of will). Maybe that is a problem, but it is not uniquely theirs. People from ALL walks of life have a hard time changing. We can’t even get people to pack smarter so the TSA lines aren’t backed up! All kinds of people don’t eat right, or exercise more, or turn off the TV, or fasten their seatbelts, or avoid credit card debt, or … insert example here. They need something-- a food pyramid, a wellness initiative, and national campaign, published research on the topic, etc, to change So why hold underprivileged people to a higher standard? Why do we imply that they should just “want to” improve their schools, that they should just up and move to another district. They are just like a lot of the rest of the us–sometimes they need a catalyst to get them going in the right direction. Of course the catalyst alone can’t do it if they won’t participate. But looking for a catalyst is not somehow embracing their laziness, or suggesting that they don’t have to be a part of the solution.</p>
<p>“The other finding is just more evidence that higher ed–and society in general–has to solve the K-12 problems…”</p>
<p>Want to solve K-5 problem? Fire all the educators with PH.Ds and their nonsensical theories in the class room. May be send them to third world countries and observe how they teach K-5 kids. For math go to eastern European countries like Romania, Hungary. For teaching non English speaking kids send them to India.</p>
<p>I guess we just differ. I wouldn’t want to enroll my child at a school where they refuse to be guided by any research about pedagogy and child development.</p>
<p>Hoe, I saw the Katrina Syndrome when I was in the Navy, and black and Hispanic sailors were offered programs that would send them through the Naval Academy Prep School, and then on to ROTC or the Naval Academy, and I never saw any of the sailors who worked in my units take advantage of it. They just wanted to coast through as enlisted men and women, without much responsibility.</p>
<p>I saw it when I got out of the Navy, and my first job was a temporary one at a ham store, which hired a bunch of temporary guys around Easter. Most of these guys were black and from Detroit…guys who couldn’t even hold down a job at a fast food joint. When the work was done for the day, there were sometimes several hours left in the 8-hour shift. When the boss said anybody who wanted to go could leave, but he’d pay us for the whole 8 hours if we stayed, these guys would always leave…gleefully, as if they were being let out of school early, not realizing that it might be wise to take advantage of the one place in the Detroit area that would pay them for their time.</p>
<p>Ive seen it in stores I’ve managed, where opportunity is too often wasted in lieu of sleeping on the job, not showing up for assigned shifts, etc.</p>
<p>The rhetoric one hears all the time is about just giving an opportunity. I’ve seen all sorts of opportunities, but I’ve also seen way too many people blow such opportunities, rather than grasping them and running with them.</p>