<p>The Duke game is on the 15th… and the residence halls don’t open until the 18th. So, the only students who will be at the game are the ones who don’t live in residence halls…</p>
<p>“I’ve always wondered which one was more overrated-U Michigan’s football team or their PA score?”</p>
<p>-:)</p>
<p>Uconn just owned Duke and everyone in Connecticut was laughing about how are new D1 program destroying them. UConn went D1 only like 3-4 years ago. The Huskies are sure to destroy Duke in hoops this winter too.</p>
<p>yeah, UConn is known nationally for their hoops program rather than their football prog. i hadn’t realized that their football prog only recently went DI… looks like it didn’t make a difference though, as this “recent-DI-AA-turned-DI” team thoroughly crushed Duke…</p>
<p>…but somehow Duke is supposed to be able to CRUSH every single Ivy team… man, i get a good laugh out of that.</p>
<p>Duke has a very proud football tradition back to the 1930’s with trips to every major Bowl game and several all-American selections. However, like most selective private schools(Rice,Stanford, Vandy, Northwestern) Duke began to slip in the 1980’s and often times competes against much larger public schools with not as demanding academic requirements. Even Notre Dame has encountered difficulties in the past 20 years. As far as home attendance Duke has a very small in-state alumni home base to draw upon as most of its alumni live a great distance from Durham. A good coach can turn around Duke’s football fortune as the school has much to offer.</p>
<p>well, the Ivy League has the longest and richest football tradition given that the Ivies essentially gave birth to football as a sport unique to America (i.e. incorporating the forward pass and distinguishing it from rugby).</p>
<p>people may not realize that Yale still holds the record for most national football championships (18) even though the last one was in 1927. Princeton is second with 17 national championships (even though each school claims as many as 24 championships each). basically, the Ivies dominated the college football landscape up until the 1930s – of course this was prior to the Coach’s / AP polls and the BCS system.</p>
<p>but all that is history… and so it seems that Duke should probably accept the fact that they are for all intents and purposes a Bowl Subdivision level program (a.k.a. DI-AA) – they don’t have the national reputation or profile to recruit the All-Americans required to be a legitimate BCS contender – and they end up getting crushed like a grape by their ACC and non-Conference DI opponents – just like Georgetown did – and they accepted their fate just recently and moved their football program to the Bowl Subdivision. G’town now regularly plays the Ivies as a part of their non-Conference schedule including Brown, Columbia, Cornell, Penn and Yale over their last two years.</p>
<p>As bad as Duke’s been, they won the ACC in 1989, 18 years ago. That’s more recent than Clemson, NC State, and UNC. I do believe they had a pretty decent coach at the time <em>snicker</em></p>
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<p>Clemson won the ACC Championship in 1991. They were also ACC Champs three straight years running before '89 (in '86, '87 and '88)</p>
<p>prestige -</p>
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<p>First of all, there have been a good no. of Div 1-AA teams which have defeated I-A teams. Second, UM was vastly overrated with their suspect D (much like ND had been the past couple of years). Third, ASU would probably be a top 40-45 Div 1-A team. Fourth, a much bigger upset would be Duke beating UM.</p>
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<p>Ughh, not this again.</p>
<p>Sorry – but that comparison doesn’t hold. </p>
<p>Most (formerly) Div 1-AA teams offer scholarships – they just don’t have as many schollies as Div 1-A schools so depth suffers (however, good Div 1-AA schools field a talented group of starters).</p>
<p>As for Duke FB (as bad as it is right now) it is still better than what NU FB was during the “dark ages” (where the Wildcats would get handily beaten by the likes of Indiana).</p>
<p>Duke, at least, has managed to hang tough against teams like Wake Forest and UNC last season.</p>
<p>The NU FB team during the “dark ages”, despite being significantly worse than Duke FB as it is presently, still managed to thump Princeton 37-0 in 1986.</p>
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<p>And ND was favored to win the national championship last year (which was a total joke).</p>
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<p>Uhh, UConn was a pretty good BE team in 2003 – finishing with a 9-3 record (including a bowl win over Wake) – and 2004 (finished with an 8-4 record).</p>
<p>And while UConn hasn’t seen that level of success in the past couple of years – they still beat teams like Indiana and Pitt last season.</p>
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<p>To put the losing streak into context – this was when NU’s administration basically gutted athletics (esp. FB) at NU with the intent of following in UC’s footsteps.</p>
<p>Duke’s admin, otoh, during this losing streak (and the one before this current one), has made numerous attempts to shore up the FB program, including further “loosening” the academic requirements for FB recruits.</p>
<p>ah good, a taker,</p>
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<p>First of all, I’m not the one who made this silly claim in the first place. Please bear that in mind. I’m merely debunking it with the backing of last Saturday’s huge upset. </p>
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<p>So what? They were still ranked no. 5 in the nation. Cry me a river. </p>
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<p>Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe they’d be ranked no. 1. Maybe they’d be ranked no. 201. Back in reality, they are a Div I-AA team. Period.</p>
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<p>That we can fully agree on. Since Duke is basically a third-rate Div I-A team… i.e. like a middle of the road Div I-AA team.</p>
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<p>Um, let’s set the record straight. NU’s football team in 1986 compiled a record of 4-7 that year, so while not stellar, it was still a competitive program. It still managed to register 3 wins against ranked opponents that year and its strength of schedule was ranked no. 63 that year.</p>
<p>Compare that to Duke last year: it won NO GAMES last year and with its last win going back to the prior season against Virginia Military Institute (a team that went a dismal 3-8 that year and is not exactly a football powerhouse). Duke’s current losing streak stands at 21 games. Its strength of schedule last year? 73. So Northwestern had a tougher SOS in 1986, managed to win 4 games (3 against ranked opponents) vs. a Duke team that won ZERO games last year with a weaker SOS… </p>
<p>So you are absolutely right it isn’t a fair comparison because that NU team that beat Princeton was a far, far better team than Duke has had in recent memory.</p>
<p>Lastly, in 1986, Princeton fielded a relatively weaker team that year. It went 2-8 with its only wins coming against Columbia (20-14) and Harvard (14-3) – both teams with losing records that year (Harvard went 3-7 that year and Columbia went winless that year 0-10).</p>
<p>So let’s recap shall we?</p>
<p>the 1986 NU was a far better team than Duke’s team was last year (given that NU’s 1986 SOS was higher than Duke’s in 2005 and NU still managed to win 4 games, 3 against ranked opponents, meanwhile Duke managed to lose all of its games last year – and is in a middle of a 21 game losing streak).</p>
<p>that Princeton team in 1986 was a weak team no doubt. it won only 2 games (against Harvard, another team with a losing record and Columbia, a team that went winless that year). By contrast, the best Ivy team in 1986 was Cornell a team that went 8-2 and crushed Princeton 39-8. Now, I’m not saying that Cornell would have beaten NU, but they would have put up a more respectable fight. In fact, fast foward 20 years later and the Princeton Tigers are fielding a much stronger team – Co-Ivy Champs with a 9-1 win/loss record (its only loss a close 7-14 game against Cornell). No way Duke “crushes” that team.</p>
<p>So, in the end, you are right, it wasn’t a very fair comparison at all in hindsight was it?</p>
<p>Do not underestimate the importance of a true playoff system that 1-AA uses…App State is a playoff-tested and hardened team. The highlight of a Big 10 school is to make it to a single post season bowl game… the Big 10 would be better served if they at least had to go through a championship game at the end of the season. App State was seasoned and ready. Ohio State was crushed last season by Florida for much the same reason.</p>
<p>Poor prestige (this is just TOO EASY)!</p>
<p>NU during it’s losing streak was WAY worse than Duke is now - with losses to “powerhouses” Minny 38-8, IU 30-0, Purdue 35-0 and UI 35-9.</p>
<p>How did they break the streak? With a 31-6 thumping of NIU (a team that probably could’ve beaten most, if not all, of the IL teams).</p>
<p>As for 1986, other wins for NU (besides Princeton)?</p>
<p>Army (gee, tough one!) and close wins against MSU and Illinois – hardly opponents worthy of any rankings (MSU and Illinois finished 4-4 and 3-5 in the conference, respectively).</p>
<p>Since the start of Duke’s latest losing streak (after a thumping of VMI – 40-14), Duke has hung tough with Navy, UNC (twice) and Wake and put up 24 and 21 points on FSU’s and GTech’s D, respectively (Duke could’ve won a couple of those games - lost to both Wake and UNC by a point last year - a Wake team, mind you, which won the ACC last year).</p>
<p>Duke’s losses to Wake and UNC (last year) could have easily been wins just as NU’s wins against MSU and UI in 1986 could have easily been losses – hence, Duke isn’t that much worse than what NU was in 1986.</p>
<p>More proof?</p>
<p>Last season, Duke lost to a decent Richmond team 13-0. The same season, Richmond lost a close game to UNH 27-17 and UNH, in turn, crushed Dartmouth 56-14.</p>
<p>In OOC play, both Princeton and Yale (the two best teams in the IL) beat Lafayette and Lehigh (hardly competitive FB programs, even by Div 1-AA standards).</p>
<p>In addition, Princeton beat Colgate by 1 point and Yale got crushed by USD (note: this is USD and not SD St.) 43-17.</p>
<p>Btw, USD plays in the Pioneer FB League which does NOT award athletic scholarships to FB players.</p>
<p>The best Ivy League teams aren’t even close to being among the best (former) 1-AA teams which don’t offer FB schollies (as evidenced by the thrashing USD gave to Yale) - what does that say about the IL chances against 1-AA teams which offer schollies, much less 1-A teams?</p>
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<p>Uhh, pre-season FB rankings have even less merit than rankings of universities based on academics. LOL!!</p>
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<p>Doesn’t this “argument” go counter with your previous statement about 1-AA teams? Duh!</p>
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<p>It’s odd to see it happen in a thread that has nothing to do with academics, but it’s notable to me that you’re openly discussing your feeling that U-M’s PA is too high. It’s not exactly a secret, I know…it’s just not something I’ve seen you say.</p>
<p>It’s not an unusual thing; I know plenty of people that just can’t freaking stand U-M. Everyone affiliated with U-M is used to it (kind of like how we’re used to freakish, embarrassing outcomes on the football field).</p>
<p>So, since we’re talking about it, tell us: what ranking do you think the respondents should have assigned UMich? If you could run that secret cabal that decides everyone’s vote, what number would be the correct one?</p>
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<p>What does the NU losing streak have to do with the price of tea in China? Nothing to do with the 1986 season which is the only connection to the Ivies (i.e. game vs. Princeton). Duke’s losing streak is Duke’s losing streak. Period.</p>
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<p>I’m sorry if this is too difficult for you to understand. A ranked opponent is a ranked opponent. You don’t have a “K&S thinks this team shouldn’t be ranked” opponent. No. 5 ranked Michigan is No. 5 ranked Michigan. Period. So sorry.</p>
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<p>Translation? Duke’s last win came against VMI (a team with a losing record that year and not known for its football program). Since then Duke has LOST EVERY SINGLE GAME IT HAS PLAYED. 21 straight games and counting! Close only counts with horseshoes and hand grenades. A loss is a loss. A win is a win. So sorry you don’t seem to understand this very simple concept. Sorry they don’t have “hung really, really tough columns”.</p>
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<p>Translation? Duke hasn’t won a single game since 2 seasons ago. Duke lost every game they played last year. Duke has a 21 game losing streak.</p>
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<p>Still crying? Need a handkerchief? No. 5 is No. 5. Repeat: No. 5 is No. 5 is No. 5.</p>
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<p>This was in direct response to your silly post:</p>
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<p>According to who? You? I’m sorry that the football world doesn’t seem to revolve around your opinion. So sorry. In the real world, App. State is a Div I-AA team (Bowl Subdivision). Sorry we can’t play in your imaginary world of K&S rankings – where a team gets a boost for “hanging tough” and a No. 5 national rank doesn’t really count because its a pre-season rank… and where a Div I-AA team gets an arbitrary Div I ranking… Duh! indeed…</p>
<p>So sorry…</p>
<p>The_prestige,
I checked through the pages of the thread that I created and which you referenced in your opening post as your inspiration:</p>
<p>Fabulous Academics…and Fun! Excitement! Drama!
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=365636[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=365636</a></p>
<p>Maybe I am just missing it, but I don’t see any arguments therein about Division I-A vs Division I-AA. </p>
<p>As for your argument with k&s, I think you guys can argue til the cows come home and you’re not going to satisfy anyone. Athletics involve upsets such as we saw this weekend with U Michigan and Appalachian State and that is part of what provides the Fun! Excitement! Drama! that I referenced in my earlier thread. There is always the chance of an upset in college sports. That’s why they play the games.</p>
<p>As I’ve said earlier about my interest in this topic, </p>
<p>“I’m much more interested in the drama and the fun and the colors and the uniforms and the pageantry of the football game than the outcome of the game. But at games with huge attendance and regional or national TV coverage, there is a great buzz in the air. It can be incredibly fun and makes you care 20-30-40-50 years later when the school is playing again.”</p>
<p>College athletics can play a significant role in the social life of a school and this experience is not the same everywhere. I encourage all to focus more on the “scene” and the fun that you can have and the lifelong connection you will enjoy as you watch your school and its teams in the decades to come.</p>
<p>hawkette, perhaps i singled out your thread mistakenly – (i know that there was at least a discussion about football on that thread but perhaps not the Duke vs. Ivies argument).</p>
<p>The point of contention, however, still stands: i.e. those who argue that Duke would “crush” every Ivy team on nothing other than the fact that it plays in DI-A and that the Ivies are DI-AA</p>
<p>prestige -</p>
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<p>Uhh, it shows that NU, during that streak, was a truly horrible team – and that Duke, despite being in a 21 game losing streak, isn’t as bad, since it has played some conference foes tough, including 1 point losses to Wake (the ACC champs) and UNC – which could have easily been victories (one can’t say the same for NU’s losses to IU, etc. during it’s losing streak; really, this point is not that difficult to understand).</p>
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<p>Uhh, sorry – but this is the LAMEST argument I have ever heard. So FB rankings largely based on **reputation<a href=“particularly,%20partially%20based%20on%20the%20prior%20season’s%20team”>/b</a> have any real credibility? </p>
<p>LOL!!! Please – that’s why there has been an outcry for not starting rankings of teams until the 3rd or 4th game of the season.</p>
<p>Gee, I guess the fact that pollsters overlooking the fact that UM graduated most of the important elements of its D is only an “inconvenient truth” to you; much like ND being touted as the favorite to win the National Championship last year. </p>
<p>ND’s no.1 pre-season ranking last year was pure **garbage<a href=“esp.%20in%20hindsight”>/b</a> to everyone - except seemingly to you (for the record, I knew ND would get blown out by every good team they faced last year since they still had the same crappy D they had the prior year).</p>
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<p>Now you are just being silly. Do you think the best of the IL, Yale or Princeton, would have lost to Wake (the ACC champion) by 1 point – esp. since Yale got crushed USD 43-17, a Div 1-AA team which doesn’t offer any schollies ? LMAO!!</p>
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<p>Actually, I’m the one who should be SORRY for revealing to everyone your IGNORANCE about 1-AA FB (maybe you and a2wolves should start a club?).</p>
<p>First of all, 8 yrs ago, ASU gave Auburn a scare 22-15 and this ASU team is BETTER than the one 8 yrs ago (the team 8 yrs ago didn’t win the Div 1-AA championship – this year’s team is the 2-time defending 1-AA champs).</p>
<p>And don’t just take my opinion – how ‘bout that of a college FB coach who know about this stuff more than you (esp. you) or I? LOL!</p>
<p><a href=“http://sports-ak.espn.go.com/ncf/index[/url]”>http://sports-ak.espn.go.com/ncf/index</a> (click to the video “How Good Is App St?” on page 2 of the videos)</p>
<p>And oh, btw, voters for the various polls do move teams up and down based on their “style points” (i.e. - Texas - despite winning this past week against Ark St was demoted 3 places in the 2 major polls for winning “ugly”). Duh!</p>
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<p>This contention is just SILLY.</p>
<p>Ivy League teams are no ASU – heck, they aren’t even a Div 1-AA team like SDU which doesn’t offer schollies.</p>
<p>Unlike most Div-1AA teams, IL teams don’t offer schollies – in addition, IL teams have the additional hurdle of higher admissions requirements – something schools like ASU or SDU don’t have to deal with (keep in mind Yale got hammered by another 1-AA school which also doesn’t offer schollies).</p>
<p>If prestige can’t make the distinction btwn (1) 1-AA teams which offer schollies and the ones that don’t (this, btw, is a HUGE DISTINCTION) and (2) Yale/Princeton and the best 1-AA teams which don’t offer schollies (hint: it’s not Yale) – then he has more problems that I thought he had.</p>
<p>There’s a reason why scrubs who initially suited up for Northwestern went on to the Ivies and set records (including Clifton Dawson – the all-time rushing leader for the IL).</p>
<p>I am with you, hawkette, on the pageantry and excitement of big time college football. But at constant losers like Northwestern, Duke, and most often Notre Dame, this kind of scene just doesn’t obtain.</p>
<p>^^^ nothing in that above post (ad hominem personal attacks included) addresses the following indisputable facts:</p>
<p>1) A national ranking is a national ranking. There is no “K&S” ranking with a national following.
2) Duke football sucks. And sucks big time.
3) A Division I-AA football team beat the No. 5 nationally ranked team in the country - a football program with the most wins of any collegiate program in history – AT the Big House no less.</p>
<p>Thanks for playing though.</p>
<p>the_prestige, don’t bother with k&s. He’s nothing more than a ■■■■■ with an unrealistic view on football and poor reading comprehension.</p>
<p>A2Wolves,</p>
<p>I don’t have anything further to add to any discussions with k&s, its very clear his posts add no value to any of the discussions at hand.</p>