<p>
Talk about a backward society and culture. </p>
<p><a href=“http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-drive03.html[/url]”>http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-drive03.html</a></p>
<p>You got me pumped with the title of this thread, I was ready for a flame war! Very misleading of you!</p>
<p>I sent a PM to a moderator asking that the title be changed. Sorry to disappoint.</p>
<p>I don’t see any problem with it.</p>
<p>:)</p>
<p>You have to realize that the country is 99.9% Muslim and they are radical. They are. And they’ve seen what has happened when women are free, i.e. United States, and many of them leave their religion and the whole religion is weakened as a whole. So I see where they are coming from. And you have to also realize that this only applies to Saudi Arabian women, which means if you are not Saudi Arabian, they don’t always commit you to the full rules. I know a girl who is Sudanese and looks very Saudi Arabian and she does not have to wear the abaya, or conform to the strict rules. I’m not sure how they really apply those rules anyway. You can’t say it’s a “backward society and culture” because these people have been living like this for years, and just because America does the stuff it does doesn’t mean every country has to conform.</p>
<p>Actually you know what, I came back down and turned on the computer because this thread really really irritates me and is making me very mad. I’m a girl and Saudia Arabia is a very respected country, and what they do is really their buisness and really the US has no right to really even talk about it. I mean, okay yeah so far it hasn’t done anything, but I just hate the fact, okay really really really hate how the US has to interfere in every country’s buisness and think they have the right to send missionaries and people like that to other countries to convert innocent souls to THEIR religion. And I know you probably didn’t mean this, but that very comment, “backward society and culture” was COMPLETELY completely unnecessary because right now I’m really doubting if you’ve really even visited the country to see what everyone thinks, this is only like 2 guys’ views so you don’t even have a full picture. </p>
<p>I’m sorry if you didn’t mean all of this but it seriously offended me, and moderators please please don’t delete this because I think it’s a topic worth seeing.</p>
<p>I have to ditto sarorah, though I don’t live in Saudi Arabia.</p>
<p>The parting shot about the “backward society and culture” rubbed me the wrong way.</p>
<p>Sarorah, What other counties do is not entirely their own business, either. If, for instance, a country initiates an internal ethnic cleansing would you consider it their business and let it proceed without intervention?</p>
<p>Further, I find it ridiculous that you even say that
because freedom of discussion is a fundamental right that is, in America at least, guarenteed to all.</p>
<p>I find your point about the US sending missionaries ironic, because Islam itself was spread through vigorous and active conversion efforts in regions that were initially not Islamic, not to mention the fact that Islam was and is spread in the US by various missionaries. Do you not worry for the “innocent souls” of US citizens being converted to Islam, as you worry about poor innocent Islamic souls being changed?</p>
<p>Additionally, one can very correctly call Saudi Arabia a “backward society and culture” for a variety of reasons. Backward is defined as
and I think that one can make a very compelling argument that Saudi Arabia is behind the times not only on a technological level (which it is) but also on a philosophic level, as it systematically denies liberty to its citizens (some have more denied than others). Also, your argument that Saudi Arabia shouldn’t be called backwards because
is fundamentally flawed, as a lack of change is the primary cause of becoming backwards, as remaining static for many years certainly results in a lack of progress and development.</p>
<p>Finally, you say that Saudi Arabia
Radical muslims present a tremendous threat to the United States at the moment, and we (we being the united states) have a vested and valid interest in preventing them from attaining, gaining or maintaing power. Not to mention the fact that most would find describing a whole country as radical muslims to be overgeneralizing at the least.</p>
<p>In conclusion, Saudi Arabia can very well be called backward, and the United States has EVERY reason and right to be concerned about what happens in Saudi Arabia.</p>
<p>I actually lived in Saudi Arabia for three years. And while foreign women are not subject to all the same rules as the Saudi Women, they are subject to the “no driving” rule. </p>
<p>You have to consider that it’s their country and their right to have whatever rules (except human rights abuses) that they want. Who are we to go over there and demand our rights? </p>
<p>I was also offended by the “backward society and culture” comment. We’re not talking about torture or or genocide. We’re talking about women driving. Most of the women I knew there had no problem with it. Who are you to disagree with them?</p>
<p>Okay, lucifer, Saudia Arabia can take care of themselves. They have been taking care of themselves for years, even before the US was formed. They don’t need unnecessary extra intervention. There are plenty of countries out there in Africa and other continents that do need help, and if the US really wants to interfere, let them interfere there to HELP, because the US doesn’t have a right to just bombard a country because the country has a large percentage of Muslim people, or even radical muslim people or because the country is behind in technological developments. Please. No country has the right to do that, because that demonstrates too much power, and too much power is not healthy, as you yourself demonstrated when you referred to Hitler. </p>
<p>I admit, my heart was racing when I typed that post, and yeah, America technically has the freedom of speech. I just hate how they presented the article in such a way where it seemed that Saudia Arabia were the bad guys here.</p>
<p>And to tell you the truth, I mean, I guess they were evident but I haven’t seen a muslim missionary go to the US and try to convert people to Islam. Once a person attains that high level of religious knowledge, they become a sheikh and sit in the mosque and teach others who come and are willing to learn. They way the US does it, is they send people to “help” others in a time of distress and invite the young children to churches, and gradually convert them. Like when the tsunami hit Indonesia, many missionaries did just that. And those are really poor innocent souls because they really can’t say “no” when offered food, even inside a church, because they need the help. The US people who are being converted aren’t even under those conditions.</p>
<p>The point is, the US cannot make every country like its own because, as you know, Saudia Arabia really has been living like that for quite some time and to suddenly change their rules would be plainly wrong.</p>
<p>Actually, you can very easily call Saudi Arabia backward and be 100% correct on a number of levels. They (and this is a fact, not an opinion) lag behind the curve in implementing technology into society, so even if you think oppressing women and having a judicial system that sounds like its from the middle ages is progress, they are still a backward society.</p>
<p>Also, boysmom, I would point out two things to you. One, they recieve aid and assistence from us, so we have a valid interest in how they run their country. Two, they are in violation of the Universal Decleration of Human Rights, to which they are a party.
</p>
<p>Also, Saudi Arabia does commit many human rights abuses.<br>
More at <a href=“http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/engMDE230572000?OpenDocument&of=COUNTRIES\SAUDI+ARABIA[/url]”>http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/engMDE230572000?OpenDocument&of=COUNTRIES\SAUDI+ARABIA</a>
if you’d like to check. So yes, we are talking torture.</p>
<p>The bottom line is that Saudi Arabia is a country with middle age era rules, especially in regards to freedom of speech, expression and assembly, and because of that, along with its equally outmoded justice system and lack of technological development (compared to the US, Japan, etc…), it can very accurately be called backward, because THEY ARE. They are “behind others in progress and development”. Unless you want to argue that backward is defined incorrectly or that their repressive society is progress, then they are by definion a backward society and culture.</p>
<p>Sarorah, living in a certain way for a long time doesn’t make it right. Second, I never said anything about bombing them. Third, we have a valid and vested interest in dealing with radical muslims because of the threat they present to the united states, wherever they may be harbored. Whehter that threat is dealt with via diplomacy, covert operations, etc… is obviously determined on a situation by situation basis, but defending ourselves from external threats isn’t a right we are yet willing to cede.</p>
<p>In terms of Islamic missionaries in America (who also prey on the disadvantaged and weak, as all missionaries do) one need look no further than the Nation of Islam. More examples/info on Muslims converitng others/forcing others to accept their views/etc… can be found at:
<a href=“http://capmag.com/article.asp?ID=1310[/url]”>http://capmag.com/article.asp?ID=1310</a>
<a href=“http://www.irf.net/irf/dtp/dawah_tech/ques22.htm[/url]”>http://www.irf.net/irf/dtp/dawah_tech/ques22.htm</a></p>
<p>To conclude, allow to ask why our society, which is also well established, ought to respect the rights of muslims who come here and let them seek to effect change on our society so we are more like them, while we ought not to try to change them at all, because they "really has been living like that for quite some time?</p>
<p>Okay, people chill for a moment. Sarorah, you have a lot of pride for your country. I understand this post rubbed you the wrong way and I wish it wouldn’t have done that. I’m sure the purpose of this post was not to be disrespectful. But, you didn’t have to attack the US like the people in the US are the only one to see the Middle East like that. </p>
<p>However, many don’t understand Saudi Arabia and countries in the Middle East. For those who this issue should really matter, the Saudi Arabians, there is not a lot of stir over this issue. As you said, they have been living like this forever. It’s part of their customs. Lucifer, if the Saudi Arabians have no problem with this, then why should you, me, or anyone else have. Looking from the outside in, I guess some of us(not just Americans, sarorah) see this differently. Women’s rights are being restricted in an unequal society, but if those in the Middle East don’t see it like that. We should leave it alone.</p>
<p>Aside from the other systemic human rights violations and the fact that SA is in violation of various treaties and agreements and the fact that we give them aid so we have an interest in how they operate, we shouldn’t care.</p>
<p>In any event, all we are doing is using OUR customary freedom of speech to comment on how we disagree with another way of living. No one has yet advocated any sort of forced change, despite our differences with their culture. Anyways, that “what right is it of ours to change them” line is a weak argument; I’m sure people said the exact same thing when Hitler began to exterminate his unfavorables.</p>
<p>Sarorah, I said “backward society and cultuer” because I intended to provoke a response and start a discussion of what appears to me to be continued enslavement of women while the rest of the world seems to agree that women should be equal to men. I didn’t mean to push your hot-button but I did mean to have you or someone with your opinion comment since I think it needs to be heard. I thank you for your comment and I apologize if I could have chosen softer words to elicit your response. </p>
<p>With that said, Saudia Arabia is the same country that is propogating the Wahhabism which teaches no tolerance of any other religion and has contributed greatly to creating murderers who think they will get into heaven by killing innocent Americans, etc. who do not believe in their religion.</p>
<p>If women become equally involved in Saudi society, there may be a calming effect on the harmful excesses of that culture. The rest of the world should put pressure on Saudia Arabia to let women be treated as equals. That’s my point.</p>
<p>Bigmain, I sort of chuckled when I read that you only wanted to start a discussion and “provoke a response”. The discussion didn’t escalade the way you wanted it to, unfortanetly. Both sides aren’t really going at this the best way, you know?</p>
<p>Look buddy, okay so they are “backward”. That doesn’t mean the US has a right to intervene just because they’re a little behind in some technilogical advancements. Sheesh. </p>
<p>Lucifer, yes there are extremists out there, and even in one of the websites you gave me to read (<a href=“http://www.irf.net/irf/dtp/dawah_tech/ques22.htm)%5B/url%5D”>http://www.irf.net/irf/dtp/dawah_tech/ques22.htm)</a>, the person himself responded that it’s not allowed in Islam, and that’s not the way people should go about converting people. You give them the facts, refute the arguments in a certain way, and then INVITE them to Islam. That’s the way to do it, and unfortunately there have been extremists who go about the violence way and inflict harm. But we all know there are extremists in every religion, and there is no way the common Muslim ambition is to “take over in the United States.”.</p>
<p>
Well just like Private_Joker said, it’s right to them. Why does the US have to keep trying and keep trying to impose it’s rules on all 200+ countries out there? </p>
<p>And you keep saying that you’re defending yourself from “external threats” but there are no external threats! If the US and Saudia Arabia have gotten along all of this time, and SA has had their rules as they are till now, why is there a sudden rush to change it? Why? Is it that not allowing women to drive a threat to the well being of the US? Is the US going to suddenly lose all of their oil relations if they do not allow women to drive in Saudia Arabia? Yes, the US has not interfered yet, and they shouldn’t and they probably won’t because if anyone is going to lose anything, it is the US. </p>
<p>
Well the US chose to live like that, they chose to give rights to all women, and when fighting for those rights, they did not ask SA first if they would also do the same thing. If you don’t want them to change “your society”, then don’t give the same rights to every citizen of the US. When the Bill of Rights was carried out, there was some uneasiness at first because now every person has to right to do as they wish in the US and speak against the govt, etc. Saudi Arabia did not exactly give those rights to every citizen and hence don’t expect anyone to change them or their society. </p>
<p>
This is not exactly enslavement, and you have to also realize that SA is not the only country that operates like this. </p>
<p>
People said that because there WAS an immediate threat, if you said one word against the govt, you were killed instantly. SA is not threatening the US, and there is really no point to just invade to demand rights of all women, when really this does not affect anyone directly in the US. </p>
<p>
As I said before, this is the result of actions of extremists. Read the site lucifer gave, it explains the situation well. ([here](<a href=“http://www.irf.net/irf/dtp/dawah_tech/ques22.htm]here[/url]”>http://www.irf.net/irf/dtp/dawah_tech/ques22.htm)</a>)</p>
<p>Anyway, if you really want to discuss women rights, take a look at this site first:
<a href=“http://www.uga.edu/islam/Islamwomen.html[/url]”>http://www.uga.edu/islam/Islamwomen.html</a></p>
<p>Who ever said ANYTHING about Islamic people killing anyone or the US intervening? All I said was that we had a right to be interested and to care, not that we had the right to invade them and make them the 51st state. To quote myself,
</p>
<p>The worst I’ve said is that we should be concerned with the radical Islam coming from Saudi Arabia (and the rest of the ME, for that matter) not because we ought to impose our values on them, but rather because they seek to impose their values upon us (the radicals, that is) and because they don’t seem to want to leave us alone.</p>
<p>The external threat I’m referring to is Muslim extermist terrorists, many of whom (as can be seen by the makeup of the group that did 9/11) come from Saudi Arabia. The threat of Islamic terror (not saying Islam condones terror here, just saying its Islamic terrorists that, however mistakingly, use Islam as the justification for their actions) is a real one that has grave implications, and is a definite and undoubtable external threat.</p>
<p>In any event, no one at any time suggested that we ought to invade SA or even use diplomatic or economic sanctions. We were just discusisng the differences between our way of life and theirs (obviously, the thread was started with a pro-US slant, but that was the fundamental purpose).</p>
<p>The very site you gave me advocates fighting for those individual rights, which means that you are “intervening”
Anyway, yes, I said that too, that the US hasn’t done anything.
But that’s how it starts. You “talk” about how their traditions are wrong and “backward” and advocate changing them. Nothing forcefully, just talking, right? And then real actions are taken, real unnecessary actions. The US has invaded other countries, maybe neccesarily, maybe not. And it still “talks” about invading other countries, and who knows, it might just do that. And this all starts when the US thinks they have the right to “talk” about other countries’ cultures and its society. And you’re right, it does, because it is in your Bill of Rights, freedom of speech, amendment 1. Sometimes that kinda talk grows into a bigger movement, sometimes it’s just harmless talk. Anyway, if one wants to criticize this country for doing what they have always been doing, let them. It doesn’t even matter as no one here is going to take this a step further anyway. America advocates freedom of speech after all. Talk and criticize all you want. By the way, I’m not from Saudia Arabia.</p>
<p>“If women become equally involved in Saudi society, there may be a calming effect on the harmful excesses of that culture.” </p>
<p>In some areas, that effect does happen. For example, there was an article recently which said that companies with a higher percentage of female bosses tend to be more stable in the long term, in addition to having better working conditions. It has been said that law schools are more humane as more women have entered the profession. In some ways, I do hesitate to say that women are the stabilizing influence in testosterone-fueled-men’s lives, but that effect does seem to be there.</p>
<p>On another note, I think Americans tend to mostly take their freedoms for granted. Cases like this demonstrate how very valuable they are - no one here is truly concerned about being imprisoned or punished for discussing changes to the driving regulations.</p>