Not a Ghetto Fabulous but a good old South of the Border

Parent Cafe
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<p>I can think of a dozen things my kids might do which would mortify me if I saw a photograph of it on facebook. I don’t think my kids would do any of these things, but one never knows. And if they did and it was photographed and put on facebook, I would be mortified.</p>

<p>Better?</p>

<p>Edit on your edit: I know I left that part out; I did purposely because I thought it was already firmly established previously in the discussion that of course none of our kids would purposely hurt others. I was not trying to change your meaning. If I misinterpreted your meaning–sorry.</p>

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<p>Maybe our definitions our different. Because i think that kid mocking poor, minority people are hurting others. And as I said above, not “meaning” to is not an excuse in my house, if some thoughtfulness would lead you to mean not to, and so not do whatever the action is.</p>

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<p>No, I don’t think so. I said a couple of times that I thought the parties were offensive. In fact, my answer to jym’s question was “funny but insensitive.” I was trying to get at a possible root cause. I don’t think more diversity training is the answer; in fact, I think it may be the problem. That’s my personal opinion.</p>

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<p>Ah, well, I didn’t realize we were debating diversity training. I agree with you; I think what we need is some plain old character building. I’m not sure where that’ll come from now, if they haven’t picked it up yet. Maybe, it will come from the fallout from those pictures. Or maybe not. I find the whole thing puzzling, to say the least.</p>

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<p>I am going to see Monty Python’s “Spamalot” this weekend, and was just reading a review in the paper. It says that the play “titillates the audience by constantly flirting with bad taste”. I am looking forward to seeing it, even though I know at one point it makes fun of people of my religion. It is classic Monty Python, and is compared to Mel Brooks movies which, as I mentioned above, tend to be equal opportunity offenders (poking fun at many group stereotypes). Yet these are FUNNY to most, not offensive. Maybe we avoid being offensive by setting the parody/sarcasm/whatever to music?</p>

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<p>Well, most Mel Brooks movies and most Monty Python aren’t set to music.</p>

<p>I think there’s a pretty recognizable line between satire and ridicule. Most of us saw that pretty plainly in that unfortunate Princeton “satire” of Asian students.</p>

<p>Mel Brooks and MP know what they are doing. They satirize attitudes, not races, religions, ethnicity, or social class. With a couple exceptions–Brooks, Jewish himself, loves to play with Jewish stereotypes. And both, but especially MP, like to stereotype upwards–the rich and powerful, for instance. </p>

<p>Kind of like Swift in A Modest Proposal, who, I think we call can agree, was not targeting the Irish.</p>

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<p>Garland,
I agree that Monty Python and Mel Brooks are masters, and skirt that delicate line… but my point is that not everyone feels that the line is drawn in the same place. Case in point Borat. One person’s humor is another persons bad taste. If everyone saw humor in the same light, we wouldnt be having this discussion.</p>

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<p>“I don’t think more diversity training is the answer.” HH
“Ah, well, I didn’t realize we were debating diversity training.” garland</p>

<p>I thought the joke jym used for her poll hinged upon diversity training. Without diversity training, there would be no joke at all, would there?</p>

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Gosh, it’s hard to be tongue in cheek tonight (she says, humming “Springtime for Hitler” from the Producers, and Cleavon Little’s version of “cocaine” from Blazing Saddles in her head…) And yes, I KNOW the 1968 movie of the Producers preceeded the musical based upon it…
But I digress… My point… What venue allows greater lattitude for “humor”-- clearly opinions differ as to what is parody and what is degrading. I just mused that perhaps someone being offensive in b flat was more pallatable than a more direct delivery of bad taste. (pun again intended)</p>

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<p>Well, IMHO, comic genius gives you a license to tread where others can’t, issued by the same bureau that annually renews James Bond’s License to Kill.</p>

<p>Chris Rock, Eddie Murphy, Richard Pryor, Redd Foxx, Monty Python, Mel Brooks, Robin Williams, Lenny Bruce…they’ve offended plenty of people, but never me, because they just flash that license and I let them drive on by.</p>

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<p>Sorry, jym, did I answer too drily to show I knew you were being tongue in cheek, at least in regards to music? Beyond the light-hearted music comment, the subject of satire and what’s legit and what’s offensive was, i thought the deeper point.</p>

<p>HH–jym’s DT poll wasn’t the main body of the thread, and though discussed by some, was a side trail from the main discussion. I didn’t realize we were still wandering in that direction; it seems off track from the subject of the party and how we raise our children, which is what i was commenting on.</p>

<p>And these threads do wander, don’t they?</p>

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<p>garland–
I reread several of our posts and realized we were tending to take things way too literally today (something must be in the water or something…) anyway-- just to clarify… back in post 82 or so… I was referring to that “poor class of people with no taste” meaning poor, as in pitiful, not poor as in money :smiley: But your response in post 85 or so was great!! There are plenty of tacky rich people too !! LOL! BTW, my H sold that Orange polyester jacket in a yard sale and some musician (a sax player) bought it. Always wondered if he ever really wore it!</p>

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<p>OK. Here are some different questions.</p>

<p>Why isn’t it OK to mock the gangsta rap culture?</p>

<p>Why isn’t it OK to mock a subculture that treats women like dirt and looks at women as nothing more than sex objects?</p>

<p>Why isn’t it OK to mock misogynists who use the “n” word and refer to their women as ho’s?</p>

<p>I don’t claim to know what the reason is that kids have these parties that make fun of the gangsta rap culture. Maybe someone should ask someone who’s attended.</p>

<p>But a lot of people would argue that that culture deserves to be mocked, and the more mocking the better.</p>

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<p>“I don’t think more diversity training is the answer.”</p>

<p>Agreed. I think the answer is cold, hard consequences. </p>

<p>Let an employer see the tape. I’m sure she’ll be able to make out the difference between satire (which this wasn’t) and deciding it is “fun” to get drunk and ridicule others. And if she can’t make out the difference, well, then hire 'em.</p>

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<h2>“I thought the joke jym used for her poll hinged upon diversity training. Without diversity training, there would be no joke at all, would there?”</h2>

<p>Actually without the African dance troupe at the holiday party, there wouldn’t have been a ‘joke’ either. There were two ‘butts’ to the joke; unfortunately one was a group of people.</p>

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<p>“I think the difference is when the point of the humor is dependent on ethnicity or gender. How would you feel about a party where all the girls had to dress as Playboy bunnies, prostitutes or cleaning ladies? Wouldn’t you feel that it was pretty sexist? I know I would, and I’m a housewife!”</p>

<p>So I guess you would have been offended by my D’s recent sorority exchange where the theme was “frumpy mom?”</p>

<p>“I don’t claim to know what the reason is that kids have these parties that make fun of the gangsta rap culture.”</p>

<p>Do you really think they are making fun of it? They LOVE the music. They play it, sing it and dance to it.</p>

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<p>I think many are misunderstanding the context of this party. This is a comment from the Santa Clara (school newspaper) Pay attention to the context of the party.</p>

<p>Compassionate Alum
posted 2/22/07 @ 9:01 PM EST
If these young people truly were racist and chose these costumes because they felt superior to those of Latino race, then every one of these comments, directed in anger, is right on. However, what the students did, was celebrate with a Latino friend, best friend, whom they love, by roasting him. I think this dialogue back and forth is extremely healthy. Believe me, they never dreamed they would hurt someone and that the news would be carried as far as it has gone, they have learned something great from this experience. I hope, as a Catholic Youth Worker, that we don’t continue to alienate one from another, but embrace this as a learning experience for all. They, each one of them, have sent their apologies, from the first second that someone was told it was offensive. They removed the photos immediately, and attended a meeting to try and communicate that this was a mistake. The internet is something we will all learn to use with much more discretion, compassion, and responsibility to a global community. These are not racist students, but young people of all nationalities, including Latino, that love each other, perhaps too much, and I hope that one thing that comes from this is that each of them will branch out and meet more students from various backgrounds. In order to do this, the rhetoric needs to be forgiving and understanding. As Fr. Locatelli mentioned in his state of the school address, if we do celebrate, theme party or no theme party, drinking or not, we need to first be respectful and think things out, think of the ramifications, this process is part of maturing. Enoy life, it is short, forgive, learn, and dialogue in a constructive manner. What can Santa Clara do that is positive to bring us all together with respect for our ancestors, their sufferings as immigrants, and their great contributions to the United States of America. </p>

<p>The party was a birthday party themed “south of the border” thrown by a latino student. (for his own birthday) He chose the theme.</p>

<p>link:
<a href=“http://media.www.thesantaclara.com/media/storage/paper946/news/2007/02/15/News/Theme.Party.Provokes.Outrage-2722134.shtml[/url]”>http://media.www.thesantaclara.com/media/storage/paper946/news/2007/02/15/News/Theme.Party.Provokes.Outrage-2722134.shtml&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>Oh I see. So the Latino student who was ‘roasted’ was a janitor or gangster? Perhaps the women in his family were all unwed mothers who wore dark lip liner… or maids? </p>

<p>So there is a time when it is okay to perpetuate stereotypes?</p>

<p>And did these kids really need to be ‘told’ what they did was offensive’? </p>

<p>Honestly, given that virtually every other post by alums at your link condemned the actions of these students, I find the whole ‘roast’ story a bit convenient. We call that ‘crawfishin’ in my part of the country. :wink: But, even though it is disappointing it took such controversy for them to examine and consider the impact of their actions, I do hope the students have learned something from all the attention. (Now if we could just be rid of the demeaning 'CEOs and Corporate ‘Hos’ parties…)</p>

<p>Related to this topic, I saw a wonderful movie on Showtime recently called ‘Dirt’ (not to be confused with the Courteney Cox series). It’s an independent film about illegal immigrants surviving in Manhattan and it follows the story of a woman who considers herself ‘invisible’ as she works as a maid on the Upper East Side. I really recommend it.</p>

<p>(Plagued with insomnia again…I really must try to call it a night…)</p>

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<p>Voxdel, have you been watching the series on CNN this week at night about gangsta rap and its misogyny?</p>

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<p>I don’t think expressing frustration with mandatory hours of diversity training is racist in any way. I didn’t see the dance troupe as a butt of jym’s joke at all. Try to imagine the days before diversity training (hard to do); in that case, if a person made a crack about the dance troupe it most likely would have been racist. </p>

<p>I really think the gangsta rap ghetto image has some white kids confused. I know my boys in no way respect any of the rappers; they don’t listen to the music or watch mtv. Just the other day one of them played a parody of a rapper song by a group he is familiar with (the name escapes me). This group sang the rap song in a slowed down, lovely lyrical way with piano and left the lyrics intact (almost entirely sh<strong>, mother</strong><strong><em>, f</em></strong>, b***, etc. etc. It was hilarious and I laughed out loud. Does this mean I was making fun of black people?</p>

<p>The idea that kids have to respect every single aspect of a culture because it is not pc to do so is sending mixed messages: they are being forced to respect something they have been raised not to respect (misogyny, violence, drug use, bad language, etc.).</p>

<p>Which leads me to my conclusion that more of this will only make the problem worse.</p>