Not exactly a chance thread: parent wonders if Yale will be underwhelmed by ECs of high-stat kid

Colleges & Universities Yale University
1

My son likes Yale. This dad is not confident Yale will like him quite as much. Forgive me for being cynical, but I question whether HYPS tier is a realistic option for this unhooked kid with strong stats and academic record but garden-variety ECs. Should I encourage junior to apply SCEA?

Here are the bare details:

ACT: 36 Composite (single sitting, 10 writing)
SAT II: US history (800), Eng lit (750).

GPA (uw) 4.0
GPA (w): 4.9
Class rank: probably 1 or 2/300 (school might only officially report top 10).
Public school in midwestern USA (title I school due to low income and high ESL student body). Sends 1-3 kids/year to top 30 selective colleges. Definitely NOT feeder school to elites.

APS: 10 APs by end of junior year, all 5s except for one oops (3 in spanish)
9th grade: World history (5), Euro history (5)
10th grade: Human Geo (5), AP bio (5)
11th grade APUSH (5), AP Eng language (5), AP Eng lit (5), AP Chem (5), AB calculus (5), AP spanish (3… ¡Que gringo! May not report this one)
12th grade: AP US govt, AP econ, BC calculus, AP physics, AP art history, AP environmental science
=(16 APs by end senior year)

Demographics: white male. Weak legacy (Yale grandparent, uncles) which probably counts for little or nothing. Bulldog blue blood too diluted to help, I think.
Will require financial aid.
Region: Great Lakes region, midwest USA

ECs
Cross country (4 years, captain for 2 years, all conference)
XC skiing (4 years, captain for 2 years, all conference)
Ultimate frisbee (2 years)
Summer Shakespeare troupe, actor (3 years)
Peer tutoring (actually quite intense and personally meaningful…not fluff EC)
Works as restaurant busboy and caregiver in church nursery

Honors and Awards
AP scholar
NM commended
A bunch of school and district awards for academic and athletics
Nothing major out of school except awards based on AP and ACT scores

Now to the unquantifiable stuff…(Warning: long post ahead. Turn back now unless you are a serious CC geek).

My take: academic stats sufficient for any elite school, but nothing that makes him uniquely attractive any elite school. To my eye, his ECs seem fairly ordinary in this applicant pool.

To me, the biggest hurdle comes when the adcoms ask “what will this student contribute to our campus?” His main EC has been sports (15-20 hrs/wk) but he does not have Div 1 level athletic talent—and thus no applicability in college. Athletics has been great for character, leadership, discipline, and lasting friendships, but I can’t see much advantage for admissions. No recruiting potential. He has focused on a few meaningful ECs and scoffs at resume-padding activities–hence no fluff list of clubs, startups, volunteering, etc. No strategically-constructed demonstrations of "passion” nor gimmicky demonstrations of “uniqueness.” His ECs do not translate into any importable skill like orchestra, newspaper, etc. that allow adcoms to imagine him contributing the same activity on campus. (I am certain he WILL be active in ECs in college, but they will be new activities). A friend who teaches at one of the HYPS univs (and previously taught at two others) put it to me bluntly: "most kids here are really good at something.” That does not inspire confidence in chances of unhooked, rounded kid, from undistinguished school—even with good numbers.

My question boils down to this—should I encourage this young man in his plans to apply early to Yale? Or, given absence of outlier EC achievements or other hook, is HYPS tier unlikely and should he aim lower? Would he be better advised to focus his energies (and perhaps commit ED) to another of his top picks in lower selectivity band?

I wonder whether adcoms at top selective schools will look at his athletics and think, “unremarkable performance in activities to which he devoted most of his time.” I wonder if his love for Yale isn’t likely to be reciprocated due to surplus of strong candidates who DO advance institutional priorities or have demonstrated remarkable EC talents. Or is this dad (perhaps jaded by too much time on CC) being too pessimistic about lack of wow extracurriculars?

Those are my questions. Now a bit of context:

My son is not attached to any dream school. Yale is his top pick at the moment, but I predict he could be successful and happy at wide range of colleges. His major remains undecided, but I would expect something along lines of economics, history or psychology with eventual career in business or law. His main aspiration is to go to the best school he can reach for academics, diverse and interesting peers, resources and financial aid. Social life and school spirit matter to him, which is why he is attracted to Yale more than its peer schools. He is well-liked by peers and teachers. In college, I expect he will throw himself into intramural sports and some entirely new social ECs.

I am not sure how to advise this boy. Aim high or go for a surer bet a bit lower down? Where he applies will be his decision, of course, but he is looking to adults for guidance. We have almost no precedent in his peer group. His HS (urban school with large percentage of low income, ESL and refugees) sends very few kids to selective colleges. Naviance simply doesn’t have enough data to tell us anything useful. Our school’s academic profile probably looks pretty unimpressive due to low-income population and low schoolwide test scores; as a consequence, admissions officers will not be accustomed to taking our students. I’m not sure if that makes his achievements more impressive in context or makes our kids more likely to be not taken seriously and passed over. There is no “working relationship” between GC and admissions like you might find in more affluent feeder schools, so we can’t count on having effective advocates at either end of this process (and those working relationships make a big difference in ANY business). Guidance counselors are well-intentioned good folks, but overworked and not so savvy about selective admissions. People here in CC seem more knowledgable so I am hoping for some realistic evaluation. I won’t discourage my son from shooting for the stars but I want to give him a realistic evaluation of his strengths and weaknesses as an applicant—and tradeoffs of aiming very high vs not quite so high. As you can see, my evaluation of chances at top tier is not very optimistic at the moment.

I’ve looked at past CC results threads which only confirm what is probably obvious to all you CC cognoscenti—that stats put my son in the running for top schools, but his ECs are nothing special…and that lots of kids with even better stats get rejected…and some with worse stats get admitted…and that key differentiators are things that can’t be evaluated here (essays, recs, institutional priorities)…and that special talents seem to make a difference…That last one is what concerns me. Probably wise commentators will repeat variations of these observations. But I gotta ask anyway, just in case we might learn something or see glimmers of hope that I am not seeing now.

Sorry for long post! Thanks to those who endured to the end.

2

Don’t ED, apply to Yale SCEA and a variety of other schools EA, RD, or EDII (if you must) and see and what happens. He will no doubt have many excellent choices.

Rice is supposed to have a social life similar to Yale’s.

3

Your son should apply to Yale in the SCEA round!

FWIW: Like your son, mine was white, had a 36 ACT with a 4.0 unweighted GPA. Unlike your son, mine didn’t have any legacy status. Unlike your son, mine was ranked about 20th in a class of 900 students. Unlike your son, mine went to a feeder high school (Stuyvesant). Like your son, mine was involved in sports (baseball) for 20+ hours a week – with a 20-game fall season, winter workouts, and a 36-game spring season. Like your son, mine was NOT Div 1 talent. Like your son, mine was so involved with sports, he didn’t have time for volunteering, charity work, or other “high profile” high school activities.

Never-the-less, my son applied in the SCEA round, and wrote his essay about his baseball coach and all the life lessons he learned from a man who did not attend college. He was accepted in December of 2011, graduated with honors in 2015, and had the absolute BEST time of his life at Yale (playing for 2 years on Yale’s club sport baseball team – the JV league).

Although Admissions Officers say “We look at applications holistically”, a 36 ACT (which is rare) seems to put students at the top of the admit pile, no matter whether they apply in the SCEA or RD round. Given all of the above, your son should apply to Yale in the SCEA round and see what happens. Best of luck to him (and you)!

4

@gibby Many thanks! Details about your son appreciated.
@nw2this Much obliged! Will give Rice a look too.

5

Definitely let him apply early. In my view there is no harm in trying. But make sure you have broad list. Maybe Amherst or Tufts would be the type of schools to look at? Liberal arts, but very sporty schools. We visited both and that was my impression.

6

if your son likes the residential college system at Yale, Rice has that also. He can apply SCEA to Yale and RD to Rice. Rice historically has not admitted as large a percentage of its class early decision as some of its peer schools so his chances to get in RD with his high grades and scores should be excellent. That is assuming Yale doesn’t snatch him up first.

7

So your son totally has the academic chops and a couple of decent but not world class extracurriculars. In essence, a Just like my son (Princeton 2021). In my opinion (and the opinion of a top 10 adcom dean), for this group of kids what triggers an acceptance is the essays, the letters of rec, the interview, and how all these things “feel” to the one or two admissions committee readers that happen to get assigned your son’s application. In that sense, well rounded, non-world class kids get in because their application has some undefinable spark, and that spark luckily resonates with the random adcom member that gets his app.

8

So sure, work hard on the essays, hopefully get great letters, and apply SCEA. He might hit it just right with the adcom.

9

I’m not an expert on Yale, which is not one of my DD’s reach schools, but I hear you. It takes a certain amount of arrogance to think your kid is Yale material, and the fact that you are humble is actually a sign of good character. I think the parents who arrogantly believe, “Of course junior will get into all the Ivies, he has a 1500 SAT!” will have it worse than we do come spring.

Try to think beyond your son’s numbers. He’s going to clear the basic hurdles academically, and he will need to write heartfelt essays that show his unique qualities and what he would bring to campus when he joins a club, study group, research team, or room suite. These things can come from his sports stories, even if he’s not the one with the best “numbers” for a sports scholarship. My older daughter wrote about being a wobbly ballerina, and wouldn’t you know? Her college has it in its “best essays” folder in the admissions office even if she isn’t a qualified dance major. What came out in her application was how she contributed to her dance community (one teacher still thanks me two years later for bringing DD into her life, not kidding) and her joy of dancing, even when her body couldn’t do everything her heart wanted it to.

Help your son come across as a unique individual, proud to be who and what he is, and not groveling for a chance to be worthy of Yale. To support him, you need to come across not as “oh, dear, are you in way over your head?” but as “you’re going to do great at which ever university is smart enough to accept you.”

My second daughter is trying for MIT. She could very well be in way over her head. I don’t want her to see that, though. We’ll also have her safety school acceptance (thank you rolling admission!) locked up before any bad news gets back from the EA round.

Good luck!

10

@oldschooldad - Your son sounds like a terrific young man, and any school will be lucky to have him enroll. Many more experienced parents of Yale students, as well as Yale alums, have written helpfully on this thread about the importance of drawing a clear line in a student’s essays from their early interests/activities to their reasons for choosing Yale. I think if your son can show ad coms that he has always had that kind of focus, perseverance and love for his interests, and therefore why Yale is the right “fit” for him, then as @gibby explains, the ad coms will see him as someone who will be able to transfer that focus to his college-level study of Psychology, Economics, etc., and therefore flourish at Yale and enrich the larger Yale community as well.

I don’t agree with @AroundHere that “it takes a certain kind of arrogance to think your kid is Yale material,” anymore than I would assume that @AroundHere or her daughter are arrogant for submitting an application to MIT. In fact, I think that MIT and Yale applicants are the opposite of “arrogant” because they pursue their interests - athletic, artistic, scientific, etc.," with a level of devotion that requires immense amounts of self-criticism and humility. This level of devotion is exactly the quality that I think Ad Coms look for in applicants. And in my experience, the students I have met at Yale are like this: they are unflaggingly passionate and devoted to their studies, their friends and their larger community.

11

agree his best chance is to apply early. Be prepared that the cutting room floor is full of top students with valadictorian status, high stats and GPA and top of the line ECs. The schools just can’t take all who are qualified. Agree also, it would help to have a hook. Move to North Dakota?

12
13

I think your son has qualifications that amply justify having highly selective schools as part of his strategy, and applying SCEA to Yale can certainly be part of it. He needs to have reaches, matches, and safeties, like everybody else, but I would suggest that he might want to have more than 1 or 2 reaches, because he is the kind of applicant who might get into one or two high reaches–but it’s hard to predict which ones. I would suggest that he look at Rice, as others have suggested, but perhaps also Wesleyan, Brown, maybe Penn and Duke.

14

Thanks to all who replied…and to @waynegretzky, who was nice enough to come out of retirement and offer a few words.

@around here --Thanks for kind reply. Just to be clear, I would never suggest my son would be over his head at a certain class of school. I have full faith he could excel and be happy at any of the selective schools. My qualms arise from stuff that is actually not about academics–namely the personal branding via ECs for admissions.

@Hunt --Speak of the devil! Your thread from a few years back “Elite Admissions: Finding the AND” was one of many factors that sewed the doubts expressed in my original post. I realize your so-called AND doesn’t necessarily have to be a precocious EC talent and could just be some quirky personal pursuit (in other words something that’s just interesting and not necessarily a skill). I also realize not every successful applicant has them. But many people sure seem convinced those things do tip the scales. Is senior year too late to start raising chinchillas?..Anyway, thanks for encouragement and I take your point about applying to multiple reaches. Fully agree.

15

I think these are really good ECs. Yeah, they don’t include an Intel prize, but they show a variety of interests and commitment. The Summer Shakespeare one might generate a good essay, too. Or perhaps his Ultimate Frisbee skills have helped him avoid disaster as a busboy? All this plus competitive stats = competitive applicant, in my view–but multiple reaches, matches and safeties, etc, etc., etc.

16

Our local Valectorian, who dropped their Calculus AP class senior year, had a 32 ACT and got into Yale. This student didn’t win any national awards. This student did , at her parents insistence, take “highly gpa ranked” classes at a local community college. The classes were phycology, personal physical fitness, stats. Etc…this college applicant missed out on summers enjoying their youth. My Child ranked 5th with only a .10 point gpa behind the “Valedictorian” , 1590 SAT , enjoyed his summers and played tennis, didn’t win any national awards, visited family and now is at Princeton. I guess it really doesn’t matter what you do while applying, it is all based on luck if you have the essay that " gets" the reader.

17

I am in a similar situation as your son, but I am not applying this year. Keep us posted! Good luck to your son :slight_smile:

18

I think your S is unusual. Not a heck of a lot of athletes are involved in a Shakespeare troupe. I think he might think about a way he could tie those two together in an essay.

It’s also not too late to think of outside validation. Anyway his school could be talked into doing this? https://www.esuus.org/esu/programs/shakespeare_competition/about/ or

19

I think that it often comes down to the essays and the letters of rec. If his recommenders say “best student in my 10 years of teaching,” it definitely helps. As for the essay, there are many resources that talk about how to address this. If his essay appeals / entertains the admissions officer who was assigned to his application, then that AO will try to fight for your son.

To score a 36 in ACT at his particular public school is probably truly rare and impressive. Lots of applicants with 36s will be coming from highly academically rigorous HSs. So I’m sure that he will have experiences that are different than other applicants in just some of the most simple or basic aspects in his day. And I think that a kiddo from a Title 1 school would contribute lots of compassion and empathy for ESL students and would be a great asset to Yale or most other expensive private college. His achievements will look good in context of his HS opportunities bc his ACT, SAT2 and APs show an objective level of competence.

“Social life and school spirit matter to him”…maybe consider Penn also.

Best of luck!

20

Seriously, reading the sports and then hitting the Shakespeare- what a nice “AND,” indeed. It can speak to willingness to go beyond the usual same old/same old/same as everyone else.

This is what worries: “scoffs at resume-padding activities–hence no fluff list of clubs, startups, volunteering, etc.” Fluff? There’s a balance required. And an awareness that activity choices are not just either/or: either “passions” or “padding.” They are experiences, contributions. Some for yourself (the kid who pursues ECs related to his future major or plays Ultimate Frisbee because he likes it.) Some for the group, meaning school and other,(not just sports.) And some because you see a need and are willing to commit (volunteering falls here.)

Still, if he really likes Yale, why not have him try? What other Early alternative would he go for, if not this? Just try to see if there are some other things he did that represent more than just what he “likes” and some idea anything else is fluff. Adcoms can’t guess that he’ll evolve when he arrives, they need to see it in how he chose, so far.

What I’d say? (What I did say to D2, when she applied ED somewhere.) “There are reasons they will like you. There may be things they think others do better. The final decision is out of our hands. But if it’s meaningful to you to try, go ahead, make your best decision.”