<p>[Study</a> casts doubt on idea that spending more per student leads to better educational outcomes
Inside Higher Ed
January 25, 2013
By Scott Jaschik](<a href=“http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2013/01/25/study-casts-doubt-idea-spending-more-student-leads-better-educational-outcomes]Study”>http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2013/01/25/study-casts-doubt-idea-spending-more-student-leads-better-educational-outcomes)</p>
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<p>This is not news (… and waiting for a certain poster to chime in…)</p>
<p>I’m not Xiggi, but I’ll chime in.</p>
<p>2010 census data shows that D.C. spends the most<a href=“$18,667%20per%20student%20in%202010”>/U</a> per student for U.S. public schools, and look at the educational outcome it delivers…
[D.C</a>. Leads Nation as U.S. Per Pupil Tops $10,600, Census Bureau Reports - Finance, Insurance & Real Estate - Newsroom - U.S. Census Bureau](<a href=“http://www.census.gov/newsroom/releases/archives/finance_insurance_real_estate/cb12-113.html]D.C”>D.C. Leads Nation as U.S. Per Pupil Tops $10,600, Census Bureau Reports - Finance, Insurance & Real Estate - Newsroom - U.S. Census Bureau)</p>
<p>He’s not the poster I was thinking of…</p>
<p>For those wondering what schools participated, this study is part of a three-year study. While hundreds of schools participate the goals and participants in the main study are listed here. </p>
<p>[-</a> Wabash Study 2010 - Overview](<a href=“http://www.liberalarts.wabash.edu/wabash-study-2010-overview/]-”>http://www.liberalarts.wabash.edu/wabash-study-2010-overview/)</p>
<p>Interesting. So all the not so cheap colleges in the study decide to fire a bunch of professors, shut down a few labs and make the costs lower across board?</p>
<p>Other than the one state college on the list, I suspect any of them have a tuition price tag of less than 30,000.</p>
<p>GMTplus7
I certainly agree that the agenda of the american education establishment is to throw money at a problem. I also agree that money is not always the answer (seems to be the easiest, no?) and poorly spent.
However, the numbers are not as clear cut as they sound. Poor school districts, such as in the inner cities, have a greater number of kids in special Ed programs and remediation. This is VERY expensive. They pay more in security. They inhabit older buildings requiring more upkeep.
Not quite related to money, but they have a teacher turnover problem (because of environment) so instruction is not consistently good- good teachers with options don’t stay long.
I don’t disagree with the basic conclusion, but sometimes you have to dig deeper.</p>
<p>Beliavsky…this is perhaps the third or fourth thread you have started about the same topic…college not being worth it for some reason or another.</p>
<p>What exactly do you want to know?</p>
<p>texaspg, if you look at the actual schools, they may not be doing that. The general makeup of Wabash College right now is not that different from 20 years ago in terms of faculty and tenure-track positions. There are few visiting and assistant professors, although the language department has foreign graduate students that run many of the language labs.</p>
<p>Yes, another thread started with a supposedly definitive link.</p>
<p>"…by the end of the panel, Blaich quipped that he thought many in the room wanted to go out and get a drink."</p>
<p>mizzbee - Here is what I am trying to get to.</p>
<p>The list includes North Carolina AT&T, Community College of Rhode Island, CUNY, University of Rhode Island and but quite a few well known private schools. The price tag at NC A&T for tuition seems to be an unheard of $1535 or let us go with $3300 total per year. </p>
<p><a href=“http://www.ncat.edu/divisions/business-and-finance/comptroller/treasurer/treas-assets/treas-off-forms/ug-detail-fy-12-13.pdf[/url]”>http://www.ncat.edu/divisions/business-and-finance/comptroller/treasurer/treas-assets/treas-off-forms/ug-detail-fy-12-13.pdf</a></p>
<p>Let us take Wabash. They are listing tuition at $33,600.</p>
<p>[Wabash</a> College: About Wabash](<a href=“http://www.wabash.edu/aboutwabash/]Wabash”>About Wabash | Wabash College)</p>
<p>“finds that there may be a minimal relationship between what colleges spend on education and the quality of the education students receive. Further, the research suggests that colleges that spend a fraction of what others do, and operate with much higher student-faculty ratios and greater use of part-time faculty members, may be succeeding educationally as well as their better-financed (and more prestigious) counterparts.”</p>
<p>So if it is possible to deliver equivalent education without spending as much, why should Wabash cost 10 times as much as NC A&T? Shouldn’t colleges be cutting costs quite a bit based on this study?</p>
<p>[Cost</a> & Financial Aid - North Carolina A&T State University](<a href=“http://www.ncat.edu/admissions/undergraduate/cost-financial-aid/index.html]Cost”>http://www.ncat.edu/admissions/undergraduate/cost-financial-aid/index.html)</p>
<p>And when you look into the details, the in-state cost at NC A&T (from saintfan’s link) is not much different from UNC: [Tuition</a> and fees](<a href=“http://admissions.unc.edu/Aid_and_Scholarships/Tuition_and_Fees/default.html]Tuition”>http://admissions.unc.edu/Aid_and_Scholarships/Tuition_and_Fees/default.html)</p>
<p>In-state tuition is about $2,500 more per year at the UNC flagship than at A&T. Other costs are really about the same. OOS tuition is considerably more expensive at UNC, however.</p>
<p>All this proves is that NC A&T does not know how to keep their documents accurate across board. There is still a huge disparity between 5k or 15k vs 33k.</p>
<p>The question still is why private schools should cost that much more if the conclusion is that they don’t provide any more value. On the flipside, now that they have done the study, should they be aiming to cut costs to show they can deliver a product comparable to NC A&T for the same price?</p>
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<p>Haha, thanks for confirming that my often repeated challenges to the “more money for better education” mantra have been noticed.</p>
<p>“So if it is possible to deliver equivalent education without spending as much, why should Wabash cost 10 times as much as NC A&T? Shouldn’t colleges be cutting costs quite a bit based on this study?”</p>
<p>Part of it is scale. 9,000 students versus 900. Wabash chooses to have a low student:teacher ratio and although it keeps some costs down by limiting its majors offerings as a true liberal-arts school, it still has very small average class sizes outside of the introductory science classes. It has a strong core curriculum requiring two lab science classes and multiple distribution requirements, meaning more professors. </p>
<p>It will be interesting to see how Wabash changes over the next President’s tenure. He is an economist and may take this to heart. If costs could be reduced without Wabash losing its unique character and reducing its rigor that would not be a bad thing. As long as the school is still the kind of place where professor dine with students, where alumni give millions annually, where jocks and scholars are one and the same lower cost would be a wonderful thing. Until then te school will continue to charge $33,000 and I will continue to be happy for a healthy endowment that made it cheaper than our public school options. </p>
<p>Remember that the schools listed in the multiple year study are not the only ones that were studied in this latest report. there are 45 schools that were examined, including master universities. It will be interesting to see the full study.</p>
<p>“Part of it is scale. 9,000 students versus 900.”</p>
<p>You pointed out the first big flaw in these studies! The second flaw is the actual cost of delivery when they include large public schools with a bunch of tiny LACs and say spending more is not getting them better education. What about all the taxpayer benefits the state school might have in the pricing structure that makes it quite cheap to attend there in state? Is that the real cost?</p>
<p>I for one find it silly to compare apples to papayas to watermelons and claim education can be delivered for a single price. It is quite insulting to LACs to suggest that they cost lot more but don’t benefit the students any better.</p>
<p>texaspg, the majority of the schools are similar though. Stop jumping to conclusions. The paper was just delivered Saturday. Wabash is one of the smallest and is all male so it will always be an outlier, as the state historically black college would be too. But comparing Hoe, Beloit, St Lawrence, etc are more similar than different.</p>
<p>A conclusion was put in place at the beginning of the thread. I did not place it there.</p>
<p>Parent of an NC A & T student here!!!</p>
<p>NCA&T is one of the hidden gems in the world of colleges and universities. Actually the whole UNC system is a wonderful array of choices, variety and low-cost tuition. Reason why I pulled my family out of CA nine years ago forsaking the UCs and the CSUs for the UNC system.</p>
<p>A & T has a College of Engineering, Nursing, and a brand spanking new school of nanoscience and nanoengineering. There is just a handful of of accredited engineering schools in NC and they happen to have one. UNC Chapel Hill does NOT have an engineering school. They do have a new joint program in biomedical engineering with NC State, but that is the limit.</p>
<p>The UNC system has incorporated various schools over the years and includes them into the UNC system. That does include various HBCUs, LACs and other historically relevant schools. The OOS cap for all OOS is 18% for all schools. The state provides a significant portion of funding for the UNC schools in order to keep tuition affordable for all NC residents. Again, another reason for our move.</p>
<p>The schools have a vast difference in student attendance. I think A & T’s undergrads are about 4000-4500. And very small teacher to student ratio for an incredibly low price tag. Some of the best cafeteria food I have ever eaten! UNC Asheville in nestled in the mountains of Asheville and is a small LAC, with an in-state tuition price. Wilmington is on the beach and has one of the best Marine Biology programs in the country and again at an extremely low tuition.</p>
<p>It has been interesting over the years comparing and contrasting the costs of various schools and the education given at each for all my kiddos.</p>
<p>Kat</p>