@hpcsa I think this is a very fair point about housing. The residence hall capacity numbers do not add up to support a significant increase in on-campus housing. Some capacity will open up to do study abroad programs, but this is often not the whole year and unpredictable. Given that the university REQUIRES all incoming students starting with the Class of 2022 to live on campus for three years, I assume that the university is similarly required to make such housing available - and in the same residence halls that the students are currently in (assuming students stay in their halls - most do). That means that any burden of a housing shortage would fall on seniors and transfers who elect to stay on campus. So perhaps there is a lottery if the new initiatives are oversubscribed.
It looks to me like the initiatives are mostly carrots, the only stick being that to get the $2000 senior housing discount, students must commit at the end of their Sophomore. Which gives the university a bit of a lead time as to expectations and, almost by definition, creates a lottery type effect where the early committers have priority.
Personally, I think the initiatives are a great idea. Residence Hall life defines Notre Dame and is a very positive aspect to the Notre Dame experience. I am not sure why any seniors would really want to live off campus (given that they are further from campus and closer to nothing), especially with residence halls having their “off campus house” available for events. But I respect that not everyone thinks like me :).
I will add that Duke also has the same impact on financial aid for being an RA as ND does and it is also clearly stated in the FA FAQ. . My older son has merit scholarships at another school and was able to save +earn a good deal of money by being an RA this year. Although I recognize that it is entirely the right of schools to determine how financial aid is distributed, it really is a situation of holding out the carrot on a stick (RA, incentives, outside scholarships) and then moving it when the student tries to take a bite. I guess the value of living on campus senior year or being a Senior Fellow is outside of the monetary value. Thanks for all this discussion about the ND dorms. S has visited the school but I have not so it’s very interesting.
“It looks to me like the initiatives are mostly carrots, the only stick being that to get the $2000 senior housing discount, students must commit at the end of their Sophomore. Which gives the university a bit of a lead time as to expectations and, almost by definition, creates a lottery type effect where the early committers have priority.”
Not allowing off-campus seniors to participate in their dorm activities and intramural sports is a big stick IMO.
" I am not sure why any seniors would really want to live off campus (given that they are further from campus and closer to nothing), especially with residence halls having their “off campus house” available for events. But I respect that not everyone thinks like me :)."
Off campus living benefits: no parietals; much better accommodations (older D’s dorm had no AC and no elevator, for example); own kitchen, etc. Also, the men’s dorms have those “off campus houses” - not the women.
One of the draws for my Ds was the resident life in the dorms. I’m not knocking that at all, and both would have stayed on campus through junior year whether it was required or not. Senior D is off campus and still feels very tied to the campus community. I’m not sure if that will still be the case anymore for seniors moving off, and I think that’s really a shame.
Current students do not like the idea of off campus seniors being excluded from residence hall activities. There is a petition going around the campus. 4,300+ students have signed.
Wow…was not aware of the new restrictions on off campus seniors participating in former (three year!) residence hall activities. THAT seems an unnecessary stick! Hopefully it will go away. A bit mean spirited and very un Notre Dame like in my view.
I think it’s terrible that Notre Dame’s residential life office would try to implement a policy that excludes off-campus seniors from participating in dorm activities for the hall that those seniors had lived in for the previous 3 years. And this is coming from a student who is no longer going to be able to attend Notre Dame this fall. This policy is friggin awful. Notre Dame res life can do a heck of a lot better than this.
I hope the student petition forces the res life office to reconsider its horribly conceived future restrictions on off-campus seniors. Go ND Students!!!
I heard the sit-in was well attended @hpcsa. I won’t be surprised if the university reconsiders some of its sticks. @CCSavant, it really does feel very un Notre Dame like.
@GeronimoAlpaca. I wish you all the best in your college life and beyond!
Current student here who attended the sit in. We made our voices heard and have a meeting with administration on Monday. Hopefully they will listen to the student’s wishes and repeal the exclusion of off campus seniors. So proud of my school
This policy is a shame. My daughter is only a sophomore but already signed a lease for senior year. As a freshman she chaired dorm events, as a sophomore she helped with Welcome Weekend, as a junior she will be an officer. She has helped nurture relationships, events and that ND spirit we have all come to know. At her dorm formal last weekend all of the sophomores went to an off campus house of a previous dorm resident to get dressed. This is where she reconnected with her BIG (sister) from freshman year and last years dorm president who were living off campus. Staying connected where ever you land in life is an important ND value. Welcome Home is their tag line. ND will always be their second home. It’s a shame they are trying to break the bonds that tie the dorm communities together.
I personally think there is nothing wrong with incentivizing Senior students to remain on campus and to create additional compensated leadership positions for them. In fact, as parents of a sophomore ourselves, we are very happy with all aspects of the “carrot parts” of the proposed program. At the same time, Senior students and their parents will continue to be able to opt for off-campus housing, as has been the case in the past. What has to go, and undoubtedly will, are any considerations that might be considered as penalizing students who decide to move off-campus for their senior year - those are in no way in line with Notre Dame’s vision and mission for its undergraduate education - they will be gone by next week, no doubt in my mind.
As mentioned above, Notre Dame has a noticeable shortage of on-campus housing already and every year transfer students, mostly women as this is where the shortage is currently most pronounced, are forced to live off-campus, which is detrimental to their integration into the Notre Dame community.
The incentives are more than enough to attract those who are on the edge to think about staying on campus senior year. Punishing those seniors who elect to live off campus BUT REMAIN ENGAGED WITH THEIR RESIDENCE HALL COMMUNITY seems really counterproductive if the goal here is to keep seniors involved with the underclassmen. As it makes no sense, I wonder if there is some other unstated goal/objective in trying to keep ND students from living off-campus? Does the administration believe that this is fundamentally wrong (on some level) or inconsistent with the philosophy of the university? Are there issues going on off-campus that we are not aware of? Are there reputational concerns? Further, there may be some kids (as noted above and elsewhere) who have a bona fide reason for seeking an alternative to campus housing. Is the university going to exclude them or provide a waiver (both are bad options)? Lastly, if all seniors decide to live on campus, where is Notre Dame going to house them? I am a huge believer in the residence hall concept at Notre Dame and believe it is an incredibly important asset in the student experience. But a lot of this does not add up …
I agree that this “stick” will be gone soon…but still wonder what the administration was thinking? Testing this concept out with a few folks would probably have elicited the feedback they are now receiving - without the pain, and without appearing so meanspirited and boneheaded.
@CCSavant I completely agree. Trying to understand how this whole issue unfolded in the first place, one has to wonder whether this part of the presentation had actually been planned this way, or whether the presenter for residential life went out on a limb during the last segment of the presentation without clearly thinking through the implications:
“Russell said the goal behind this initiative is to make living within residence hall communities as special as possible for the residents.
“What I’ve worried about over time is that if we say intentionally or unintentionally to our students, ‘When you move off campus, you can still continue to come to dances and community events and participate in hall sports and other things,’ then it doesn’t differentiate what that experience was when they were a member of the on campus community versus the off campus community,” Russell said. “So I think the right message to send our students, in fact, to prepare them for the real world, is for them to receive the message that there are rights and privileges that come with any community of which you’re a part, and both are good — they’re just different.”
This appears pretty much like speaking off the cuff, and it is quite sad that originally good intentions got buried under this unnecessary and contra productive last part of the presentation. Anyhow, Residential Life will have to sort this out asap, as the issue otherwise will not go away, but become larger and completely overpower the many positive aspects of the announcement last week.
I am in favor of all the enhancements except the one that excludes off campus seniors from participating in dorm life. From experience even the 2000 stipend offered to sophomores to commit to on campus housing will not be a savings. My older son started in 2013. R&B was a little over 12k…it is now almost 16k. My son stayed off campus senior year…his rent and a small meal plan plus expenses cost about 12k total…still less than R&B minus stipend. I have been looking at off campus housing for senior year for son 2…rent is still about the same as it was for son 1…
My reason for off campus, my older son commissioned military graduation weekend. He worked on campus in rotc unit from May to October and needed short term housing until he received his orders to relocate. If it weren’t for off campus housing senior year. It would have been hard to find short term housing with military clause…he was able to extend lease until he moved. Son 2 will also commission graduation weekend (fingers crossed) looking at off campus senior year for same reason. I know my older son spent alot of time at his dorm senior year even though he lived off campus. Ostracizing seniors from dorm activities doesn’t seem to abide by the sense of community ND is about.
Have there been any updates on the proposed changes? Normally my husband and I and our adult children give some of our ND Day “votes” to our respective dorms, but we are all very unhappy about the proposed changes that ban off-campus seniors from participating in hall events (and we were RA’s, so we didn’t live off campus!) Our oldest has already voted, and she did not give any of her votes to her former dorm. Husband and I are voting later today.
As many commenters have already noted, the policy is both mean-spirited and ineffective. Neither the “carrots” nor the “sticks” will stop the seniors who want to move off campus from doing so.
ND Day, these are all good causes and donated funds are critically important: https://notredameday.nd.edu/leaderboards
It is not quite appropriate to connect these separate issues in our pov.
Yes…ND Day…give where you would like. These benefit the students. Our kids. The University.
Many of us are not happy with the proposed Senior initiatives but my sense is that they will evolve into something entirely sensible. The concept is fine. The initial execution…somewhat flawed. My only concern is that they have not reversed the “sticks” so far. What are they waiting for?
I agree with you @CCSavant - I do think they will reverse the “ sticks” part, it’s just a matter of time. But I also understand @“blithe&bonny”’s concerns and I think it’s appropriate if they decide to direct their contributions elsewhere because of this current policy. This year my donation was entirely directed toward our local scholarship fund. Money does talk.