My son is having a very tough time deciding between Notre Dame and Carnegie Mellon. I see this as a ‘good problem’ with two good answers, but that doesn’t make the choice any easier. We live close to Carnegie Mellon and know it very well (his older brother attends, I’m an alum). But Notre Dame has a way of winning your heart…so here we are! I’d welcome feedback from anyone with a perspective on this specific choice or these schools in particular. Cost differential is not a factor. Here are some of the key factors in play:
Carnegie Mellon Pros:
The specific academic program (Behavioral Economics). Carnegie Mellon is the only school that offers an undergraduate degree in this rising field. Son is very interested in this program, but it is new and doesn’t have a track record of outcomes yet (although most degrees have very good outcomes here). He has attended a few BE classes and is fired up to learn more from the leading experts in this field.
Close to home which is appealing to son
Ability to customize majors and create your own interdisciplinary academic path
Proximity to the city which is what he is used to
Carnegie Mellon Cons:
Son is very interested in marching band and music opportunities. Although Carnegie Mellon is full of talented musicians, the marching band is not at Notre Dame’s level and does not provide the same opportunities. They do wear kilts, however, which is a plus.
Students at Carnegie Mellon tend to be very quirky and uber-gifted. They are truly unique both intellectually and socially. And the culture of hard work is very real. This has been a fantastic fit for my older son, but I’m not sure my younger son enjoys the ‘vibe’ of Carnegie Mellon as much. He will find his tribe (he makes friends there every time he visits his brother), but will it be as easy?
Notre Dame Pros:
The culture and atmosphere on campus really appealed to my son. The more students we met, the more he said “I can see myself here.” Notre Dame just seemed a little more balanced between academics, fun, and service. The lack of Greek life replaced by the tradition-filled res life experience is a good fit for him.
ND appears to be more flexible with students who change majors or are still finding their calling which might be my son. The first year is wide open with students choosing a college for their 2nd year.
The marching band is really amazing. We got a grand tour from a current band member and my son was impressed. Music and band is important to him so the opportunities at ND are a plus. There are so many traditions and opportunities even beyond the football games. My son is already on a first name basis with many band members and they are very effective ambassadors!
The alumni network is incredible. Carnegie Mellon has great alums, too, but ND is on another level.
Notre Dame Cons:
I’m not even sure if this is a con (advice welcome), but Econ at ND doesn’t have that unique twist like Behavioral Economics at Carnegie Mellon. If my son has a passion for this branch of Econ, Notre Dame doesn’t really deliver. The outcomes for Econ students at ND seem to be great, but is this considered to be a strong dept at ND?
The Mendoza Policy. Switching majors to business at ND is a competitive process with no guarantee of acceptance. This is true at Carnegie Mellon (Tepper) as well, but I get the sense it is more difficult to do at ND.
The distance from home. Not a deciding factor but is an inconvenience and cost issue.
The rural location. We are city folk, so my son might have some culture shock once he’s in a more rural environment.
Picking Notre Dame based on band or campus culture seems odd…and maybe it is. Then again…the experience can be life-changing. Lifelong friendships are made, international travel opportunities, and just the everyday joy of being part of something that is meaningful. Is ND band and culture worth forgoing the chance to be in Carnegie Mellon’s ideal and unique academic program?
Picking Carnegie Mellon based on an academic program seems rational…and Carnegie Mellon has a unique program that cannot be duplicated. Then again…how many students stay in their first major? And ND Economics isn’t exactly a weak program. It just doesn’t have the targeted focus that my son is seeking. Is Carnegie Mellon’s academic program worth missing the chance to be part of the ND band in the hopes he will stay in his first choice major and have a far better experience/outcome there?
The above was not intended to lean towards either university. We are truly in a 50/50 state right now with three weeks to decide. Whichever way he decides, I’ll be thrilled for his opportunities and a little sad about what he gave up. I’m interested to hear the collective wisdom of CC on how to navigate a tough win-win choice!
He can sit down and compare the specific coursework needed for that degree in Behavioral Economics at CMU with courses required for degrees in Economics/Psychology/Sociology/etc. at ND. My bet is that there are very few specific classes that only exist in the BE program at CMU. Chances are he can put together a nearly equivalent program at ND if he prefers to study there.
Personally, I’d recommend a broader approach, than focusing on a narrow major. There’s a good chance that you S will tire of Econ and get excited about other disciplines not offered in HS.
If he wanted to be in business, are there any direct admit biz programs to which he applied?
I don’t think picking a college based on campus culture and having an opportunity to be in a desired activity (marching band) at the highest level is at all odd. This is all part of fit. Especially when comparing two institutions that I’d consider to be academic peers.
And before contacting the economics department (which he can do) a useful first step would be to look through ND’s course catalog (which almost every college has online) or look at the Economics Department website and get a sense of what classes are offered. I believe ND also offers an option for a senior honors thesis which is on a topic of the student’s choosing so that could be an opportunity to delve into an specific area such as Behavioral Economics.
In terms of getting to ND many students fly into Chicago and then take a bus to ND (rather than fly into South Bend). For full disclosure my H went to ND and my S got his Master’s degree there.
I have a daughter who is a double major with Econ at Notre Dame. The other major is in Mendoza, but she was a direct admit, so I can’t help on what the transfer process is like. However, she loves Econ there. She did plan to major in Econ while applying, and stayed with it, so that does happen.
I think looking into other course offerings along with Econ may be able to meet the same program elsewhere, although maybe a student wouldn’t have all the same people in classes. Many people who study Econ have other studies to complement Econ, it seems to me. I would definitely have your son contact the Econ dept to see if they can help him get an idea of how to meet his academic goals.
As far as the “rural” nature of South Bend, I think that was a concern of my daughter’s before she started there. She has found since that the smaller town provides better opportunity to socialize with other students, as there aren’t many commuters. One of the best qualities of Notre Dame is the close -knit student body. I just asked her if she had any trouble adjusting to South Bend, and she says “No”. We are also from a big city. The greater South Bend area does have plenty to do. Have you visited?
My daughter and her friends have had fantastic opportunities as far as summer internships go. Last summer, my daughter went to a major East Coast city (I don’t want to identify her) and there were 7 or 8 other ND students there that she hung out with a lot. This summer, my daughter will be in a different city. She has to fly in late, and instead of taking an Uber, an ND family that lives there will pick her up. This is what we love about the ND family, everyone takes care of each other.
@bluebayou My son was a direct admit to several business programs including Case Western which has ‘open door’ admissions to almost all majors. But none of those schools ranked as high on his list as Carnegie Mellon and Notre Dame.
Thanks to everyone for the extremely helpful advice so far. As more background, we have visited Notre Dame and South Bend twice (once in the winter cold, once in the spring warmth!). We certainly enjoyed both visits and find the people to be wonderful. It is just different from living in an urban area - and we are not sure that will matter to him. Countless students we met on campus told my son they moved from a city to Notre Dame and never regretted it. But as you probably know, there are numerous CC posters (some of whom claim to be ND alums) who were not thrilled with South Bend or the remoteness of ND.
My son did meet with an Econ advisor during admitted students weekend and received very good info about the dept offerings. They were candid about the lack of a ‘formal’ behavior econ program (no shame there - Carnegie Mellon’s is unique). But the advisor had similar advice as @happymomof1, @happy1, @bopper, and @Ruby789 - Work with the Econ dept to create a path that meets his goals. I’m not convinced that will be the equivalent of studying under one of the founders of the field. But it is also very true that picking a school based on a single major is ‘risky’ given the likelihood of changing majors anyway.
We are in the process of studying the course catalogs and other information about the opportunities in each dept. I think that will go a long way in the decision process. Both universities are just so impressive - I’m grateful my son was blessed with the ‘problem’ of making this decision!
I don’t know how anyone can not be fired up by the Kiltie Band, but…(I attended one game my entire 7 years)…if he feels comfortable and sees himself at ND, that’s likely the right answer, when all else is roughly equal.
Are those founders heavily involved with the undergrad classes, or are they mostly working with grad students? It might be better to head to CMU for grad work after a solid undergrad at ND.
The ensembles at Case are fantastic, and everyone can get a CIM music teacher at Case.
My sense is that CMU, may be more limited, but i don’t know how it works if you do not audition at CMU on your instrument.
Case makes it easy to double major or minor in music. Really no auctions are necessary, can “walk on” with ensembles, try out and get a chair position on more than one. Case will give students elective credits for ensembles, and also the venues at Case are fantastic, both the Cleveland Institute of Music venue, Harkness Hall, and even Severence Hall is used for student performances. Also see Maltz Synagogue which has been converted to a performance space for Case Dance and Music students.
