A possibly related event:
Summary: at this particular Kroger grocery store, Sunday is “wear an NFL jersey to work day”. A 16-year-old employee wore a Colin Kaepernick jersey…
@demosthenes49:
I obviously am not disagreeing, one of the problems with the first amendment, or any right, is assuming it is absolute, like those for example trying to argue that the first amendment protection of religious belief means it is above other rights, and it isn’t. When it comes to public employees, you are correct that state election law could prohibit wearing political t shirts and such as campaigning by state employees, but I believe there was a case a couple of years ago here in NYC where they tried to prevent cops from political speech at work (the locker room example I gave) and they found that was protected.
Colleges pose almost the opposite challenge in my view, and that is colleges, both public and private, to the consternation of some, are supposed to be places of academic freedom, where teachers are supposed to be protected from political based suppression of what they teach, at a college the kids are supposed to be old enough to handle where teachers disagree with them, as long as the teacher in turn does not use disagreements over ideas as a reason to retaliate against the student (yeah, I know, ivory tower, lots of professors out there who want you to spit back the drivel they give out…). If we applied the same limitations to college professors as we did with public school teachers, it would be de facto limiting academic freedom which for a college is one of the basis for teaching, so in effect free speech would go along with the goals of the job. A college whose president thinks slavery wasn’t a bad thing and thinks the ante bellum south was justified in slavery and secession, and told history professors they had to teach "that side of things’ on an equal basis with his own beliefs, they would be violating that. professors are not supposed to be neutral the same way public school students are. Obviously, this may not be true with religious beliefs, a teacher teaching creationism as science is not exercising academic freedom because creationism has been ruled a religious view, not an academic one.
I am not someone who thinks rights are absolute, just that for example a public employee has a base right to free speech as long as it as I understand it doesn’t affect their role (like a teacher let’s say), whereas a private employee has zero first amendment rights to free speech, at work or off, you can be fired if your bosses don’t like your private speech and they could conceivably fire you for religious belief if your religious belief conflicts with the job or hurts the company (like the guy who was anti same sex marriage being given the heave ho, because it was hurting the company financially). What constitutes speech in an official role, versus their own beliefs, can be tough of course in the public sector, and private speech can impact their job performance (think of Judge Roy Moore in Alabama, as a classic example; even if he never used his religious belief in his court decisions [which I personally find dubious],his public pronouncements to me should not be protected, because he gives the very real impression that in his courtroom defendents are not equal before the law,he gives the impression his religious beliefs override the law…
Unless we’re talking religious garb (Constitutionally protected), a private retail business has every right to restrict its employees from wearing clothing that offends customers.
But they encouraged wearing the jerseys! Those official jerseys are very expensive too.
Yes, the business has the right to do that. Although it does look like the customer and store manager were being oversensitive in the same way that the PC-police/SJWs are often accused of being, and that the manager may not have thought ahead that “wear an NFL jersey to work day” could result in political messages being conveyed (whether or not intended by the wearer). Or other messages (e.g. that of a player from a rival team to the customer’s favorite team).
Other NFL jerseys that may convey messages that some may be bothered by:
- Any Seattle jersey (national anthem).
- Any Washington jersey (mascot).
- Various other individual players with respect to national anthem.
- Tom Brady ("Deflategate" and suspension).
- Michael Sam (openly gay, some people not accepting).
- Adrian Peterson (misdemeanor for recklessly assaulting his kid).
Yes, the private store can do what it wants, but a “wear an NFL jersey to work” day could easily lead to political controversy, since there are plenty of players or teams with some sort of political controversy attached, so it may not have been the best idea if the manager wanted to avoid political controversy.
‘Wear a jersey to work that doesn’t irritate half our customers day’, not one you’re sure will. Protest on your own time, in other words.
It could be an intelligence test, except we tend to frown on those these days.
Well this issue is not going away anytime soon. The students at my sons university will be sitting during the athem this weekend. I suspect his school will not be alone. He called and ask me for advice. I told him his grandfather fought in both WW2 and Korea when the country he fought for did not fight for him at the time. Even knowing this he died believing this country was he greatest country in the world. We will never be a perfect country but to degrade those who want us to be better is not something I cannot support. I told my son to do what he felt was right and not worry what others think about his decision.
“We will never be a perfect country but to degrade those who want us to be better is not something I cannot support.”
I read this 3 times and I’m not sure where you stand on the issue. :-/ Is it just me?
Nope. Same confusion. Think there’s an extra double negative.
Yeah, I had to read using context to figure out they supported protesting an injustice. I think those who say things like “this has no place on a football field’ are kind of missing the point, sports are a big spectacle, that draw a lot of viewers and where else is a better place to make a stand? It is also a little idiotic to say sports has nothing to do with politics, why do sports teams visit the White House after winning a championship, think the resident isn’t getting political advantage out of that? When teams do all the stuff honoring the military, they are taking a political stance, since there are people out there who don’t think the military is something that should be honored, and in some ways when the country is at war, as we are, it also can be argued ‘honoring the military’ is also trying to honor the wars they are fighting, and the singing of God Bless America has political implications all over the place, including insisting that somehow America has a special relationship with God, when you sing 'stand beside her, and guide her, through the night with the light from above”, it is a viewpoint that some people might find offensive, so why is it sung?
Not to mention, of course, that sports don’t exist in a vacuum, they have been a catalyst of change (the integration of baseball and other sports came ahead of the end of legal segregation), issues like domestic violence have gained focus when athletes are involved and raised awareness, so how can it be independent of sports…and the answer is it isn’t, the real objections are politics don’t belong in sports (or entertainment) when it is a viewpoint they don’t like (the ones objecting).
These types of peaceful protests are a good way to show solidarity, make a point, without the danger inherent in participating in street protests that can turn violent as in Charlotte and other places. This avenue isn’t available to all, only athletes really, but for them i think it makes sense.
When members of the military start with the Kaepernick thing, we have a problem, Scotty.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3808543/Navy-sailor-refused-stand-national-anthem-uniform-review-military-threatened-jail.html
The military is as volunteer as your high school football team but…
So great to see this spreading. Kaepernick may be kind of a schmuck, but this isn’t about him anymore (if it even ever was). Strength in numbers, power in solidarity.
The military has different rules than in civilian life, and things like freedom of speech don’t apply the same way they do with civilians, so I wouldn’t be surprised if the military code requires people serving to stand for the National Anthem. That said, that also disturbs me a bit if they do, if someone volunteers to serve in the military, but also sees something is wrong and wishes to show there is something wrong, I don’t see how they should be forced to stand for the Anthem (not saying the military code doesn’t require it, saying I don’t agree with it), forcing someone to stand for the Anthem doesn’t make our fighting forces any better, it doesn’t make someone more or less patriotic, and they certainly are not showing contempt for the military, it sounds more to me that someone wrote this rule the way schools used to force kids to say the pledge or whatnot, it is making something that should be up to someone’s conscience into a forced drill shrug.
Jackie Robinson was court martialed by the military during WWII for refusing to go to the back of a bus, even when ordered to do so, for disobeying a direct order, and the military argued that allowing him to disobey that order would break military discipline. The kicker was, that order was illegal, there already was a general order signed by FDR that prohibited that kind of segregation, but the military still pursued the court martial ( as far as I know, it wasn’t until after WWII, thanks to all the war criminals claiming they were following orders, that the military code of justice was changed to allow disobeying an order they knew was illegal). I am sure that the military would argue that the sailor refusing to stand would create tension in the armed forces, would create disfunction in the ranks and so forth, but like with Jackie Robinson’s court martial, I suspect it is more about blind adherence to dictums rather than looking at the context (and that is just my opinion).
Without some type of change, growing numbers of kneeling athletes won’t mean anything.
They mean something in that for better or for worse, it has made the underlying issues visible, people who 6 months ago wouldn’t know Colin Kapernick from a hole in the wall know his name, know what he is doing, and whether they agree or disagree with his protest, at least are aware of what he is attempting to do (as are the other players). Without visibility, issues don’t get solved, in the 1950’s and 1960’s the tide for civil rights laws didn’t change until people outside the South saw peaceful protesters being beaten, attacked by dogs and hit by firehouses on tv, before that relatively few people cared about what was going on. The tide turned in Vietnam in terms of supporting the war when people saw the war in living color in their living rooms and could see what the military was claiming, and the reality, were seemingly different.
There are some who say Kapernick started his protests so as not to get cut. Don’t follow the NFL enough to know (or really care for that matter). My point is that ultimately, unless changes actually happen, it won’t matter how many athletes take a knee for the anthem. And growing numbers of athletes kneeling won’t in and of itself change anything (other than the obvious number of athletes kneeling for the anthem across the country but at some point that will become just a so what).
This movement is filtering down to the college and high school level. We have several high schools here whose athletes, band and cheerleaders took a knee during the anthem. SMU had students and members of the band take a knee. Texas State University had a large group of students who refused to stand during the anthem. Kapernick gets paid regardless if he is cut or not. It will be interesting see if this movement grows.
Any how many of those college and high school kids have a clue of why they are kneeling? I am willing to bet large numbers have no idea. Or give reasons that make Miss America contestants look like Rhode Scholars. A lot of blind imitation and following fueled in large part by social media.