@Wolverine86 The problem is “All Lives Matter” is that it ignores context. A Daily Beast writer likens it to someone who runs through a cancer fundraiser screaming "THERE ARE OTHER DISEASES TOO.” The context of “Black Lives Matter” is not that other lives don’t. The context of “Black Lives Matter” is that the value of black lives remains under assault in the United States.
Back in the 60s, the similar slogan used by blacks was “I am a man” – since black people were protesting the fact that the greater society did not view them as fully human. Using the “All lives matter” logic, the counter to that would be “But we are all human”. In that context, it’s insulting.
@hebeglebe Do you personally have close friends or family members that are black or hispanic males? If so, ask them about their experiences with law enforcement, regardless of their profession, socioeconomic class, eduction level, etc. It might be eye opening to you. Personally, all the ones I know can tell stories of getting stopped or questioned for no reason at all in ways that wouldn’t happen to caucasian males. I’ve even witnessed it first hand on multiple occasions.
’ the value of black lives remains under assault in the United States.’ Yes, and the vast majority of blacks are killed by other blacks, not by white cops. And more are being killed as police are engaging less in their communities.
Having said that, is there a bias toward black men by police forces? From what I hear, absolutely yes. I heard Tim Scott, US Senator from SC, telling how often he has been stopped in DC, for no reason. And he is a Republican. I have heard similar stories from other blacks I know. Is it a racial bias? The cop in the recent Charlotte shooting was black (though the victim’s wife claimed he was white) and the police chief is black.
Black Lives Matter. As much as any life. And @T26E4 , I think your analogy to cancer vs other diseases is spot on. But it seems to me, that to some, the lives of men killed by police matter a whole lot more than those of men killed by gangs, thugs, armed robbers, and kids with guns.
“But it seems to me, that to some, the lives of men killed by police matter a whole lot more than those of men killed by gangs, thugs, armed robbers, and kids with guns.”
A death is a death and all should be mourned.
However, we SHOULD expect more and better standards from law enforcement, no?? I don’t get what is so hard to comprehend about that.
Roland Fryer did a study on police use of force relative to the race of the subject, adjusting for the characteristics of the encounter (e.g. day/night, high/low crime area, suspicious object or behavior, etc.).
The surprise result was that police, at least in the limited sample involved, were not more likely to shoot black people than white people. But, not surprisingly, police were more likely to use other types of force during encounters with black people than white people. Since the latter type of encounters are far more common than those where the police shoots someone, it is certainly possible that a higher percentage of black people than white people have personally encountered police use of (non-lethal) force against them, which influences opinions on the matter (and therefore reactions when something as high profile as an incident of police shooting someone hits the news).
The shootings may be the proverbial tip of the iceberg that gets all of the attention. But the rest of the iceberg is a really big problem.
I agree completely with what @ucbalumnus wrote. There are two problems, and it is only when we distinguish among them that we can have rational discussions about them.
First, there is an overly violent police state where lethal force is used far too often, against all races. But you would never realize this from news stories. Second, there is too much non lethal police violence against blacks.
The false narrative that blacks are shot more often than whites is a disservice to everyone. Some whites, even non-racist ones, won’t care because it is “not their problem”, when it is in fact everyone’s problem. Others will realize it is false and therefore discredit everything else that BLM says. So instead of rallying everyone to the issue of police overreach, it gets less attention than it should. It also doesn’t help when people rally around an unsympathetic figure like Michael Brown (a thug who assaulted a store clerk just prior to charging at the police officer), which diminishes the attention on real victims like Crutcher.
Then we can focus upon the second problem, which is excess non-lethal force against blacks. I agree this is a very real problem.
Speaking as someone broadly sympathetic to Black Lives Matter, I do have a problem with criminals and their encounters with police. Far too often, police use force, and even lethal force, while apprehending low-level criminals. Everybody agrees that the police were right to kill the Orlando shooter to prevent further death, but police don’t need to use lethal force to apprehend some guy selling loose cigarettes or even some guy fleeing from a burglary.
Over and over again, far too often, I hear a police officer justifying a shooting because they were in fear for their life, when either there was no reason for them to be in fear for their life or, if they had handled the situation without escalating it, there would have been no danger. What was the lethal danger in the shooting of Keith Scott in Charlotte? He had a criminal history, and he was committing the crime of smoking a joint, but having watched the police video, I can’t see a lethal danger posed by a guy backing up with his hands at his sides, even if he had a gun in one of those hands in an open-carry state.
I have a big problem with police using too much force in their encounters with low-level criminals. It’s the same problem I have with police in their encounters with law-abiding people whom they erroneously suspect of low-level crimes: too much violence too fast.
However, it’s also understandable that despite the truth of Mr Brown and the (seemingly justified) circumstances of his shooting, it’s not brought forward or acknowledged much given the immediate and universal vilification of every other shooting victim (regardless of innocence, circumstances of shooting, etc.) by opponents of the BLM-stance.
@“Cardinal Fang” you are correct, I wasnt clear in my statement, I/we certainly have an issue with how cops handle low level criminals. I mentioned the over militarization of the police in my previous statement.
@hebegebe We will have to agree to disagree on your assertion that we are not shot more than whites. You see, many of you are just now tuning in to these atrocities due thankfully to cell phone video, dashcams, etc. This has been going on for many years, and many of us have a story of a family member, friend of friend, etc, that somehow the cop “feared” for his life, and the person of color was shot. Up until the last couple of years, heck, many people thought we were making this up, as if police officers always tell the truth, and always behave accordingly.
I dont want to hijack this thread any longer, because this is supposed to be about kneeling and the anthem.
Article about hours of training required to be a police officer and other jobs. At least part of the issue is one of training. Other issues involved no doubt and no single fix.
In recent years, we’ve seen numerous situations where the police shot someone, the police spokesman gave an account of how the shooting took place, and then video surfaced revealing the police were lying.
It would be odd to think that the advent of cell phone video suddenly made police lie about shootings when they previously always told the truth. The better explanation a priori is that police have always lied about some shootings, but now we have video so we can catch them at it.
Then the logical conclusion is that if you lived in a community where police shot people and then lied about it, you would not trust police, but if you (like me) lived in a community where police shootings were rare and seemingly justified, then you would not empathize with this mistrust.
Police shootings overall are rare compared to other kinds of police use of force. It is certainly possible that these other kinds of police use of force create a lot of negative personal experiences with police that result in general mistrust of the police, particularly among people who are more likely to encounter police use of force for a given situation (e.g. black people).
This is not just my assertion. This is the conclusion of the careful study by Roland Fryer (the same one ucbalumnus pointed to). Roland Fryer is widely recognized as one of the most talented young economists around. He won the John Bates Clark medal, given to economists under 40, and considered second only to a Nobel Prize. You can read more about him here:
Now this is one study, and perhaps later studies will refute this later. But perhaps not. My professional work involves looking at data and finding instances where the “collective wisdom” is wrong. Policing is certainly not my field of expertise, but I did a back-of-the-envelope calculation on CC in November 2015 about the black murder rate that suggested the same conclusion–that blacks are not shot more often on a per-police encounter basis.
We’ve also seen situations where contrary to numerous witnesses and a compelling story line, the police weren’t.
Anyone who thinks unjustified shootings haven’t happened and don’t continue to happen is an idiot. Videos of them prove nothing for BLM other than what we’ve already known, absent a compelling statistical argument on the the racial incidence.
“This is not just my assertion. This is the conclusion of the careful study by Roland Fryer (the same one ucbalumnus pointed to). Roland Fryer is widely recognized as one of the most talented young economists around. He won the John Bates Clark medal, given to economists under 40, and considered second only to a Nobel Prize. You can read more about him here:”
This study has been widely used but it does not tell the correct story. He covers all shootings by police with the majority of them being criminals in the act of committing a crime. The question that needs to be answered is what is the racial breakdown of questionable shootings or shootings involving a unarmed individual. To date there has not been a national study addressing this issue. The complaint from blacks has always been that the police (regardless of officers race) trigger finger seems to always be quicker when dealing with blacks. I feared for my life seems to be a common reason given for these type shootings. For every Michael Brown you have a Laquan McDonald or Walter Scott. I have personally been pulled over driving while black more times than I can count. Once for driving 37 in a 35, had a officer take my keys out of the ignition for not having a front license plate and once had a officer follow me for 4 miles before pulling me over for suspected drunk driving. I was so mad I did a handstand for about 5 seconds to prove I had not drank a drop. I do believe the majority of cops are good people but many abuse the power of that badge. Minorities being mistreated by the cops is as old as the country itself. The only difference is you now have a camera or cell phone at every corner to record the encounters.
I think people here are missing the forest for the trees.
These students can be protesting/advocating for ANY ISSUE. They could be kneeling for abortion rights, the right to bear assault rifles, legalized marjuana, whatever…
The larger question is whether it’s appropriate for students & teachers (employees) to be touting their political causes during official school events.