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Understanding isn’t agreeing. Just so you’re clear on that!</p>
<p>I read and watch many things that I don’t agree with. Sometimes I even change my mind.</p>
<p>I don’t have any problem with anyone quoting the National Review per se; it’s a perfectly reputable conservative website that I think is (generally speaking) well on this side of wingnuttery.</p>
<p>What I do have a major problem with is anyone relying on Steven Sailer for anything, or for assuming that (his almost entirely unsourced) article says anything remotely supportable. I’m much too tired right now to do more than direct people to one Southern Poverty Law Center article at [SPLCenter.org:</a> Queer Science](<a href=“http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?sid=96]SPLCenter.org:”>http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?sid=96), but I promise that when I can I’ll post all sorts of links amply demonstrating that Mr. Sailer is well on the other side of wingnuttery, ascribing as he does to the notorious “germ theory” of homosexuality (it’s a disease!), as well as to the somewhat openly eugenicist implications of that theory. As does his friend J. Michael Bailey – who is not exactly a friend of either the gay or trans communities (possibly the understatement of the year).</p>
<p>The guy’s a crackpot in every sense of the word. Who likes to present himself as a brave seeker after truth who won’t be silenced by the liberal media, no matter how “radically unfashionable [it is] to call homosexuality a disease” (a quotation from the article above).</p>
<p>And, please, same-sex marriage has been discussed and debated at length in numerous threads in the election and politics forum. There’s no need for anyone to derail this thread by changing the subject to that from the subject of gay teenagers coming out, or by getting into the merits (or singular lack thereof) of Sailer’s theory (unsupported, of course) that gay men in marriages or committed relationships are just as promiscuous as single gay men allegedly are (another statement he makes without citation), so gay men getting married defeats the purpose of marriage blah blah blah.</p>
<p>Of course, Sailer’s homophobia is rivalled only by his open racism, as outlined in this SPLC article at [Extremist</a> Steve Sailer is Source for CNN’s ‘Black in America’ Series | Hatewatch | Southern Poverty Law Center](<a href=“http://www.splcenter.org/blog/2008/07/25/extremist-steve-salier-is-source-for-cnns-black-in-america-series/]Extremist”>http://www.splcenter.org/blog/2008/07/25/extremist-steve-salier-is-source-for-cnns-black-in-america-series/) </p>
<p>So, yeah, quote the National Review all you want. But this is not a forum where I (or a lot of other people) are going to allow someone to get away with citing homophobic, racist crackpots to support their ipse dixits that gay teenagers (and, apparently, even middle schoolers) are so much more inherently promiscuous than straight kids – it must be a symptom of their “disease”; it’s a promiscuity germ too! – that it’s apparently impossible for a pair of gay 12-year olds to limit themselves to holding hands. Pah.</p>
<p>Donna</p>
<p>Will it ever be possible for anyone to post something here dealing with any LGBT-related issue of any kind, without being forced to respond to somebody making flagrantly homophobic or transphobic arguments and/or linking to well-known bigots to support those arguments?</p>
<p>It reminds me of how far we still have to go. (Not that I really need a reminder; after all, I doubt there’ll be a NY Times Sunday Magazine article about transgender kids coming out in middle school anytime in the next 20 years. Speaking as someone who decided at the age of 8 that I would have to hide who I was, and be fundamentally unhappy, for the rest of my life – and lived like that for more than 35 years.) But it does become tiresome.</p>
<p>Donna</p>
<p>I respectfully disagree about National Review being a wingnut organization. It’s a very conservative magazine and website. Do I agree with everything ever written there? Absolutely not, but I don’t think the presence of a column by a guest author nine years ago is indicative of anything. Nine years is a very long time, even in one’s personal evolution. The back story to that piece was that it instigated a serious debate about the issue right there in NR for all to see. Those of you upset by the presence of that opinion piece might be surprised to have learned how many actual NR writers disagreed with him and stated that quite eloquently. Sometimes the presence of an extreme opinion can begin a dialogue that is healthy and enlightening. Which is why it’s a very good thing to be open to listening and willing to state your own opinion. Which is why, Donna, as tired as you may be, you never know who you might be informing every time you write. On a separate note, the Southern Poverty Law Center does some great and good work and also some things of which it should not be proud.</p>
<p>It’s true - we often think we are just talking to the same people when we have these conversations. But view counts are generally so much higher than the number of posts on thread. There are lurkers who may never post, but are just here to listen and observe.</p>
<p>The lurkers mostly are interested in the topic at hand, not homophobic links and snipes between posters that aren’t related directly to the topic… as the parent of a gay teen who knew in middle school that she was gay, but has been reluctant to come out to her classmates, I think the original article and discussion are pretty interesting. And wish the thread would get back to that.</p>
<p>zoosermom, You misread Donna’s post. She wrote.
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<p>intparent: my kid was out to family and close friends in high school, but not officially out at school though I doubt few were unaware of his orientation. He disliked the idea of having to “announce” his orientation but was very disturbed he might somehow be misrepresenting himself. Wouldn’t it be nice if it wasn’t taken for granted in middle and high schools that students are straight? What do you think can be done to create a more comfortable environment for the students who aren’t?</p>
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You’re absolutely right and I apologize. I missed that “well” every, single time.</p>
<p>But the point remains about the Sailer OpEd. It’s nine years old and opened a serious conversation, which I think are good things.</p>
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My daughter is a history major who’s taking her first adolescent ed course this semester. The current topic is gender and orientation. She finds it fascinating particularly because my younger son just started middle school and has gotten some guff from his administration for not being tough enough. He’s a musician. Who gets to decide what makes a boy? Anyway, I digress. I’ll report back on how her class is going because it is addressing exactly the points you’re making.</p>
<p>intparent and alh, I’m sorry if I churned up the water on this thread. I regret that, because I do care very much about this issue as it touches my family too.</p>
<p>I’m not sure if this helps, alh, but kids in school (middle or high) are hyper-conscious of any “differences” between themselves and others. Many kids live in fear that the “make-funners” will zero in on them and pick on the one thing that makes them in some way different. It could be the most minor thing, but can plague a kid for all his school years. Some kids get called evil names because they wore their hair a certain way one day, it’s that petty! I got called by my brother’s name all the way through high school, because everyone knew my brother, and they knew it bothered me to be called by his name. Woe betide some poor kid whose chair squeaks in 7th grade, a sound like passing gas, because he will be called “Stinky” until he graduates (and after, on Facebook now). Kids with weight issues, kids with an overbite, with unusual parents, or who move from out of town can be bully victims. Something so personal like sexual orientation is sure to be zeroed in on, but if the kid is comfortable with him/herself then it’s no fun for the bullies. Kids who are “different” but confident are usually considered “cool”.</p>
<p>One of my kids was picked on for a different reason, and I did a lot of coaching with my child to put it in perspective. We laughed a lot about those poor bully kids “having nothing else to talk about but that”.</p>
<p>I know that schools mean well, but I don’t think all the sermons about tolerance do much good. In our school we have a “Kindness” initiative, and there’s actually a club called “Be the Change”, also “Interact” and the “Gay-Straight Alliance”, but there’s still a bullying and harassment problem at our school, as there probably is at other schools. All of my kids have gay friends, and some of them have been out since middle school, and it’s just not a big deal. 1 of my kids joined the GSA with his girlfriend and the whole club went out and had parties and stuff as a group. They still stay in touch with each other, it’s nice.</p>
<p>My D is fairly shy to start with, so that is an issue for her. She is in 9th grade now; there is a GSA club starting in 9th grade, but I haven’t asked if she is joining, and she hasn’t mentioned it. Her school is a fairly small private school with a VERY supportive faculty and administration. Gay-bashing would be jumped on immediately if an adult heard it or heard about it, I think. But I still think she would have had some social issues in the middle school for sure, and think it was probably wise for her to wait to come out.</p>
<p>The school is having a parents night to review the sex ed curriculum this fall, and I am quite interested to know how homosexuality is covered in it. I think they are having this session because some conservative parents are concerned about the same thing 
It should be an interesting evening, to say the least. I will certainly be there, although since D is not out, will need to be careful about what I say. But I will speak up in defense of that part of the curriculum if necessary, that is for sure.</p>
<p>intparent: sounds like a wonderful school! I am aware of schools, too, where gay-bashing isn’t tolerated by adults and the entire school culture is really opposed to such behavior… though only private schools. Looking at some of the comments on-line following the NYTimes article, a doctor suggests our kid’s generation has really been helped by the internet. Some are able to find peer support on-line if they don’t have it locally. That comforts me, a little.</p>