I think these stringencies were developed in the past by religious people who had cases of OCD, and I’m only half joking.
I think they were developed to isolate the members of the communities from the outside world. It’s technically possible to interact with the outside world and still follow the rules, but it isn’t easy, so the rules tend to make the communities more insular and the members easier to control.
It could be chicken and egg as far as islolation. These rules were developed in ancient times, with a population that was nomadic, and also lived with persecution. They weren’t allowed to assimilate, and doing so could have been perilous. I don’t think anyone imagined flying thousands of feet above the air in the times the flying rule was established.
The Reform judaism movement started, I believe, in Germany, and when Jewish immigrants came to the US in the early 1900’s, they welcomed the freedom and ability to assimilate- and they did. Some temples from that era look like churches. They added many customs that had been associated with churches. Some have organs while musical instruments are not part of traditional religious services. They dropped the dietary laws and other customs. The modern Reform movement has changed with the times, supporting ideas such as women in the rabbinate, same sex marriages and more. However, it has also re-adapted some of the older customs for the purposes of ritual and identity.
I don’t know all the reasons that some sects continue with all the ancient laws, but I believe they have some spiritual meaning to them. As to whether or not there is the intention to be isolated, that would depend on the particular group. Overall, the practice of Judaism is as diverse as any other set of people.
I think obsessing over some of these details is the precise opposite of spirituality and if God really wants his / her / its followers to worry more about these things than just being a good person, then that’s a God I want no part of, because he / she / it is a jerk. If you’ve gone so far off the rails that you believe embarassing an innocent woman and holding up a flight of innocent people (as well as making life difficult for the flight attendants and other people charged with your safety) is godly behavior … Gag. I’m fully judgmental of this nonsense.
I agree. Spirituality has nothing to do with labeling other people as this, that or the other thing. It is about accepting other people. I have no patience with this sort of thing.
There are many people who agree with this and that is why a smaller fraction observe such laws. There are plenty of beliefs and rituals out there that I don’t agree with, and some I would be judgmental of, including some behaviors, but I am curious about some of the reasons for them.
Back to the original question of the thread, I would give up my seat to someone who wanted to change, if I could. Others would not. It wouldn’t bother me to do this, but it bothers others. People have different preferences.
@Pennylane2011, maybe you’ve said it somewhere already and I’ve missed it in these 19 pages, but why isn’t the burden to change seats on the man who has the issue, vs. the woman whom he doesn’t want to sit next to?
It is his responsibility. I think it is OK to ask politely, but then, he should accept the answer whatever it is. I don’t condone behaving badly, or delaying the flight and think that someone who does this should be treated according to the airline’s rules.
The article is about someone who behaved poorly on a plane. Ideally, he should have made some preparation ahead of time. There was some discussion about how to to this, buy two seats, try to make arrangements ahead of time, but whatever it is, it the burden is on him.
However, if it was not an inconvenience, then if I was asked I’d do it. I don’t fly a lot. Most of the time I am with my family. It could amount to me switching with my husband if there were three seats in a row. I’d have to consider the situation. However, just because I would try to move doesn’t mean others have to- or that it isn’t the man’s problem in the first place. It is.
The long debate on this thread is because of the variety of opinions, and also how people feel about his reasons. All are interesting responses.
What I am saying is that he should not be asking the woman to move, even “politely.” HE should be the one respectfully trying to get another seat, preferably from someone who is in a middle seat or in some other inferior situation. It doesn’t seem that you have considered that as the preferred solution to his problem.
In the article in the original post, the guy walked on the plane, noticed that he would have had to sit next to a woman, and refused to sit down. He didn’t even ask the woman to move. He just refused to sit down. He was, in the article, acting as if it wasn’t even his problem, in the same way you’d act if you arrived at your assigned seat and discovered that someone else was in it and wouldn’t move; you’d expect the flight attendant to handle the problem.
Finally, to get the plane moving, the woman moved. IMO, before it got to the point where the plane was delayed by a petulant guy who refused to sit down, a flight attendant should have told him, “There’s your seat. There’s the door. Pick one, buddy,” and then if he continued not to sit down, escorted him off the plane.
“It is his responsibility. I think it is OK to ask politely, but then, he should accept the answer whatever it is. I don’t condone behaving badly, or delaying the flight and think that someone who does this should be treated according to the airline’s rules.”
The whole point of these stories is that these men AREN’T “asking politely.” First, they wouldn’t be asking the woman – they’d be asking other people (seated next to men) if they could take their spots, and in doing so be prepared to “trade down” in quality of seat. These men think the burden is on the “offending” woman to move.
I know that he wasn’t asking politely. I don’t know how many times I need to state that I don’t condone his behavior on the plane before it is apparent that I don’t. The only difference in opinion about- being in the situation where a man asked me to move - between the majority on this board and me, is that I would not mind if he asked me politely to move, and if I could, I would do it.
This doesn’t mean that I have not considered other solutions. Isn’t this an opinion thread? Does there have to be one preferred solution or can we have individual preferences?
Honestly, is the end point to this that we all agree or is it that we try to see different views on things - if nothing else but to see how different people think about this situation. I thought that was the idea of an opinion question- as it originally was the title of this thread.
Did I miss something about trading down seats? I didn’t see that part. I don’t think anyone should be expected or even asked to trade down to a less expensive seat. I was assuming the trade would be between the same cost seating section.
Did I miss something about asking the woman? I was assuming that if I was seated next to a man, and a man wanted to sit in my seat, that he would ask me to move to another seat so he could sit next to a man.
I’m actually confused now about the point of this thread- I thought it was to discuss what we’d do if we were in this situation, hypothetically, and to possibly consider different viewpoints about it.
I would also like to make the point that nowhere in this thread did I say anything critical about either of the women in this article- one decided to change, one did not. So I don’t state my own preference as the only solution or the preferred solution, just that I would change and that others have the right to decide what they would do. I don’t put the burden on anyone but the man who wants to change.
It isn’t entirely clear in the first example who he was talking to, but the woman is the only other person mentioned so I assume it is her. The second example is where he asks a couple to change seats. I assume that means he asked them together while they were sitting together. This also assumes they are both in the same price seats.
"Francesca Hogi, 40, had settled into her aisle seat for the flight from New York to London when the man assigned to the adjoining window seat arrived and refused to sit down. He said his religion prevented him from sitting beside a woman who was not his wife. Irritated but eager to get underway, she eventually agreed to move.
Laura Heywood, 42, had a similar experience while traveling from San Diego to London via New York. She was in a middle seat — her husband had the aisle — when the man with the window seat in the same row asked if the couple would switch positions. Ms. Heywood, offended by the notion that her sex made her an unacceptable seatmate, refused."
IMO either sit in your assigned seat or get off the plane. If you don’t want to sit next to someone, buy two seats.
Or fly Southwest and board in the middle range, when there should be plenty of open seats all of whose neighbors are occupied, allowing choice of “acceptable” neighbor passenger…
DH has some orthodox and ultra-orthodox relatives. Some of them seem to truly believe that women are second class citizens, so its seems completely in their purview to think its reasonable to expect the female to cow-tow to their expectation.
Not me. I used to fantasize about running up to one of these relatives and giving them a big hug to greet them (hugging is very much in my nature, but of course we lowly women cannot touch them because we might be impure at a certain time).
@zoosermom, please, please move that woman’s bags on the bus and sit yourself down in one of “her” seats. Do it for all the people denied a seat by that selfish woman. Do it every single day. Please.
Note to self: New marketing idea:
Design a portable, collapsable thin but functional barrier “wall” that can be opened up when seated to provide a “wall”. Ideal for orthodox jews, muslims, people who don’t want to sit next to anyone with bad breath or BO, social introverts, people who don’t want to feel obligated to talk to a chatterbox next to them, etc on public transportation, air/train travel, etc. Could make a fortune!!
^^iPhone app that does this electronically to reflect the electronic era of today.
You could design it like one of those pop up hampers, so it fits in a carry on bag. Someone could open it, and put it over their heads.