Since I’m the one who brought up car theft I will respond. No one is disagreeing about forcible rape. My roommate in school was forcibly raped by a stranger who broke into her apartment with a weapon in the middle of the night. We all agree on the horror of that. These cases at issue aren’t about that at all and really shouldn’t be compared to that. These cases seem to be confused episodes of sex between adults of various levels of judgment and impairment who may have knowingly chosen to impair themselves. So yes, I stand by the stolen car analogy. You have no right to steal it, but I am a sane adult, and thus should be cognizant of taking sensible precautions to avoid theft. I will sympathize with those too young or otherwise mentally or physically disabled to understand taking precautions, but competent adults should be expected to act, well, competently. I will still support arrest of the car thief (and of the assaulter) but the sad events are so often very predictable and avoidable by those with common sense.
People here have frequently mentioned unconscious women, but what about people (men or women) who are blackout drunk? Determining whether or not someone is in such a state may be near impossible for anyone without experience, and likewise determining ability to consent.
I think we as a society moved fairly abruptly from a state of “protecting” young women as much as possible (curfews, dorm mothers, etc.) to one where we burned our bras, ripped off our panties and said “anything goes”. A lot of real women have been caught up in the cogs of the new dynamic. Unlike generations of the past, now each generation is facing a new, constantly changing world. As with most things, the pendulum will swing until it (hopefully) settles into some relatively moral state.
I don’t think much can be done about blackouts in terms of the law. If s person acts consensually and talks consensually well you certainly can’t punish the partner plus If someone is blacking out from alcohol they have more issues than ill advised sex with drinking.
While I don’t know exactly what Tonymom’s objections were to the analogy, many object to it because they believe it reinforces the traditional idea of women’s bodies as property, usually belonging to someone else, and that it makes sex a commodity. Some believe it dehumanizes women by comparing them to an inanimate object. I don’t think rape = theft is a very good analogy myself.
here is the disconnect for the alcohol issue that doesn’t make sense. A man and woman meet at a restaurant, have dinner and enough drinks to be legally drunk. They both drive themselves home and are stopped by the cops. Both will get a DUI.
Same situation for dinner and the drinking, but now they go and have sex. According to numerous colleges, the woman can’t consent since she is legally drunk and so the man is charged with rape. If the man is as drunk as the woman, why isn’t she isn’t charged with rape also. This seems like a Title IX violation as the man is treated differently than the woman.
Much of it makes little sense. Doesn’t seem to stop people from trying to defend Title IX in its current form.
^It’s not the alcohol that provides the disconnect, but the male-vs-female dynamic. Men are more likely to be happy to wake up and find they had scored the previous evening (even if they hardly remember). Women are more likely to feel that the one-night-stands are a negative in their bigger picture.
I was referencing the disconnect with how the law/rules are enforced differently for men and women when alcohol and sex are involved.
@dadoftwingirls, how about this situation: Two people meet at a restaurant and have dinner and enough drinks to be legally drunk. They leave in their separate cars and one car collides with the other. Both people probably will get DUIs but there will be an attempt to determine who was actually at fault for the collision. If one person is injured and is also found to not have caused the collision, that person will almost certainly incur lesser criminal penalties.
So, maybe when there is an allegation of sexual assault and both individuals have been drinking, each person should do a breath test but all the elements of sexual assault should still need to be proved (and defended against).
In your scenario the man is charged with rape because the woman claims it is so. If the man were to claim that he was raped, then she might well be charged (I know, I know, but it happens). The man is less likely to claim that he was raped (or even to think that he was) than the woman is, apparently. That’s where the disconnect lies.
The practical problem with that is to accurately measure BAC, you need to do it before the person sobers up. Unlike DUIs that resulted in a wreck, most campus sexual assault allegations aren’t reported immediately or even within 12 hours of the time of the alleged incident.
"IMO, I think most women, and yes, especially mothers, are in the dark about what goes on in the minds of boys/men, and what kinds of things are said about women in everyday “locker room” talk. Except these days, it’s not just in school, or in the locker room - it’s pervasive all over the internet in online forums, porn, etc. The objectification of women is real, no matter how sweet and respectful one thinks their male child is. "
This is definitely true, IMO, and it is one reason why male jurors are more likely to convict in rape trials than female jurors. Males know how other males talk and act. They have been in those locker rooms and know it isn’t all just “talk”. They know many guys aren’t the “good guys” their moms think they are.
“Hmmm where are the women in all this? It is not OK to consume a bunch of vodka with your BFFs, head off to a party, paw some guy, head off under your own steam to a dark corner and have riotous hot monkey sex, send texts to your friends and a messages to the guy about how you can’t wait to do it again…and then 3 or 6 months later file Title 9 charges and folks you have your heads in the sand if you don’t think that happens.”
There we go again. Can you provide some stats, some basis for these conjectures or is it all conjecture? Put some evidence in front of us if we have our “heads in the sand”.
Doschicos, the first statement lacks just as much evidentiary support as the second paragraph you quote. Silly to demand it from one and not the other, isn’t it?
@dadoftwingirls – you are getting caught up in traditional stereotypes rather than looking at how the law reads on it’s face. It applies equally to men and women – no one is given any preference or leg up when drunk under Title IX or under the conduct codes which define consent. But to recognize that legal equality in the context of how it plays out on today’s college campuses means admitting that men sexually assault women in greater numbers than the other way around. And some are reluctant to face or discuss that reality,
We have referenced cases on this forum where the male is the complainant and the woman has actually been expelled for sexually assaulting him . But posters don’t want to hear about those cases. They want to stay in their comfort zone and rail against Title IX and consent policies in the context of males being falsely accused.
Men are equally entitled to bring claims against women if they feel they were too drunk to consent to sex. But in circumstances involving heterosexual encounters they do so in very small numbers. So my conclusion is that men, like women, are reluctant to report or that women are assaulting men in far fewer numbers. But it has nothing to do with them being less entitled to bring those claims under the law or the conduct codes.
Does anyone on this thread genuinely think it is more common for women to sexually assault men than the other way around? Or that it even happens in equal numbers?
“it is also true that if a woman is raped, the rapist is more likely to be white.”
OK, but I don’t see why that information is useful, unless you’re defending a black man being stereotyped a la “To Kill a Mockingbird.” If a woman is raped in the United States, her attacker is more likely to be from California than Wyoming. This doesn’t actually tell you anything about people from California or Wyoming.
Men may not understand their university’s definition of consent. Hence, a man may not realize he’s been sexually assaulted because he doesn’t understand his university’s definition of sexual assault.
I think colleges are all over that definition in orientation these days. They have heard it.
It depends on how you define sexual assault, and ultimately we might need to wait for case law to interpret some of the recently passed statutes. Even in affirmative consent states or colleges, I doubt many people, men or women, are going to practice Antioch style consent.
“Doschicos, the first statement lacks just as much evidentiary support as the second paragraph you quote. Silly to demand it from one and not the other, isn’t it?”
Happy to provide. So glad you asked - or really just criticized and called me silly. 
“Batchelder et al. (2004) reports that female jurors are more likely than male jurors to disbelieve female complainants, and so acquit defendants in greater numbers.”
http://www.kkcomcon.com/OJRU/ROJR0107-5.htm
I’ve read much more on it in the past but this is what a quick google search brings up. Most is buried under tons of results about the Cosby case right now and I don’t feel like digging further. If you have any prosecutor or trial attorney friends that work on non-stranger rape cases, feel free to ask them who they would prefer all things being equal.
“Men may not understand their university’s definition of consent. Hence, a man may not realize he’s been sexually assaulted because he doesn’t understand his university’s definition of sexual assault.”
So, are you saying males have less ability to comprehend the information that is provided to and drilled into most college students these days??