I don’t think anyone actually believes that but yet when posters speak of how the rules “are enforced differently for men and women when alcohol and sex are involved” they won’t recognize that men are not reporting they were too drunk to consent or that they were assaulted. I am not sure what they expect the universities to do - make the claim for them because alcohol was involved?? Instead posters allege the rules are applied unequally.
If the facts of a case indicate both were extremely intoxicated then in order to be protected by the law or conduct code the male is going to have to make the complaint that he was either too drunk to consent or he was assaulted. If he doesn’t do that he gets no protection. How is that enforcing the rules unequally? He never made the claim.
Well, as the mother of a son I am apparently by definition clueless and harboring a rapist.
Here’s my last piece of evidence that I actually know what kind of man he is. When he broke up with his last GF, and took up with the one he now lives with, he told me, in regard to the former, “I don’t want to be someone’s lord and master. I think relationships should be equal.” Regarding the latter, “It’s great to be with someone who really gets you.”
@Consolation I don’t know your son; so the following comment is not about him.
Relationships and rape are separate practices. In Buffalo, for example, a serial rapist and murderer practiced evil for decades. His loving wife and adult children refused to believe it when he was finally caught.
Many studies document the difficulty of distinguishing rapists from other men. This is part of what makes them so successful at appearing innocent. Who would believe a standup husband killed joggers in his spare time? In fact, he was successful raping and killing prostitutes and a college girl for a long time (less valuable? less innocent?) Only when he killed a mother of four did the issue get serious.
I am a mother of grown sons. When reading these threads, it doesn’t occur to me anyone is suggesting my sons are rapists or potential rapists. My sons are the helpful bystanders. There are many helpful bystanders, male and female.
That doesn’t mean I’m not willing to stand with all mothers of sons when discussing how to educate our sons (and daughters) on issues of consent. Of course, it is easier for me since mine are long done with college.
Consolation: I am sorry - I’m just not understanding these posts in the same way you are. There are at least a handful of mothers of sons on this thread very concerned about campus rape. I can’t speak for them, but I don’t read anything here as attacking my sons. Rape is a problem I wish we could solve. If possible, I’d like to be part of the solution. I would hope my sons are part of the solution, and sort of think they are, as I imagine yours is.
eta: In the Brock Turner case, there was one rapist, and at least five helpful male bystanders. That is a hopeful ratio imho
If you had paid attention to the various recent threads on Title IX abuses, most of the cases are some variation of the situation that @momofthreeboys mentions. Girl and boy get drunk, have sex. Months later, after boy gets interested in someone else, girl accuses boy of sexual assault because regret equal rape.
I know this was not directed to me, but I did do this, because I found your link to the 2004 study interesting and a bit counter intuitive. While voire dire (jury selection) is really straight up voo doo, most of what I heard was that the courtroom criminal people generally like older people on non violent/consent rape cases regardless of sex, and younger women on violent rape cases. One female courtroom prosecutor did say she avoids younger women on consent type cases, because she thinks women judge each other harshly. I will say that the great majority of the cases that go to trial, at least here, involve some element of violence/physical coercion though.
Also, FWIW, I don’t think it is fair to say that men “have less ability to comprehend the information that is provided to and drilled into most college students these days”. I think, as has been discussed many times on these threads, that the definitions of things like sexual assault, coercion and consent are intentionally written to be both broad and vague. I believe this is done because the clear effort here has been to “empower” women who feel wronged.
The most recent thread I remember had to do with Matt Boermeester. According to news reports, that particular Title IX case was a travesty of justice. When we learned more the story was very different. I think by the end of the thread almost everyone still posting agreed the case had been judged correctly.
As I understand it, we don’t get the inside information on Title IX cases unless there is a court filing of some sort. So I don’t know how we can judge what is true or not without that information. I am sure there are travesties of justice. However, I, personally, haven’t yet been made aware of one.
There was a 14-year period when he wasn’t known to have had any victims, it wasn’t like he was raping and killing “less valuable” women all that time. And the police, for all their ineptitude, had DNA from his victims and knew they were dealing with one individual. The case was very cold by the time he struck again. It wasn’t like they didn’t concern themselves with the matter until there was a white suburban mother of 4 killed. It was rather a fluke that someone put it all together. Don’t make it worse than it already is.
Again so interesting how posts always come around again to violent rapes when what is being talked about is fairness, equity and due process around situations that are in no way, shape or form “rape”. I doubt there is a single poster in the history of CC that doesn’t recognize what rape is.
Anyway, I think one clue that would be interesting to examine during this “open period” while evaluating how far Title 9 is going to stretch would be to look at the “unfounded cases.” At the two Michigan flagships it is hundreds for each campus. I think looking at what those claims were and why they were unfounded might give some insight into what the problem or misconceptions about the encounter might be. It might also give some clarity to what kinds of services might be needed on campuses for these students who need help and have issues navigating relationships in early adulthood. The unfounded issues never see the light of day except for the administrators that are hired to sift through them. There may be some helpful patterns in those cases although I suspect alcohol is number one.
The issue is the degree of violence. As a college girl, I was bruised on more than one “date.” One of my sisters had a finger broken on a date. If we hadn’t fought so hard, we would have been raped, but with no visible injury, rape deniers would say we weren’t raped.
My point above is that the rapist dates looked normal, just like the Bike Path Killer, who was more commonly called the Bike Path Rapist, I guess because raping is worst than killing
"If you had paid attention to the various recent threads on Title IX abuses, most of the cases are some variation of the situation that @momofthreeboys mentions. Girl and boy get drunk, have sex. Months later, after boy gets interested in someone else, girl accuses boy of sexual assault because regret equal rape. "
this is my worst fear for my son. I hope to God this does not happen to him.
“I know this was not directed to me, but I did do this, because I found your link to the 2004 study interesting and a bit counter intuitive.”
It seemed counterintuitive to me as well, that’s what struck me and led me to read up on it more at the time, @Ohiodad51, when I was following a sexual assault case and heard that the jury chosen had more males than females on it. At first I was concerned about the victim getting a fare shake but my researched made me realize that a male majority jury gave an edge to the prosecutor.
I have daughters and sons. I know beyond question what rape is and that it happens regularly, particularly when alcohol is involved. I taught my daughters to protect and defend themselves. I have taught my son to do the same. I have taught all of them to respect others’ bodily integrity at all times, as well as what consent really means. I worried terribly while my girls were in college because they did have a good time and sometimes drank alcohol. Thankfully, neither was ever assaulted.
I did and do worry about my son being accused of something he didn’t do - not because of a he-said/she-said thing while drunk, although I know it occurs, but because he would be the guy to always help everyone. So for his senior paper in high school, which had to be 30 pages long, he wrote a paper about these issues, including consent, intoxication, Title IX overreach, and due process. His college also provides excellent information. At least I have peace of mind to know that he is fully informed.