<p>We have rules and punishment in our house and we don’t have any substance abuse problems. I’m the youngest of 12 kids. Some of my sibs were super strict parents, some very loose with the rules/curfews. Literally all of the kids from the stricter families with “actions mean consequences” type punishments are leading productive lives and raising lovely families. Not so for the kids of the “laid back” parents.</p>
<p>Barrons, I could not agree more.</p>
<p>Sarahsmom42: My last comment was full of possibilities for addressing the problem.</p>
<p>To be honest, I’d advocate lowering the drinking age to 18, as I think it’s quite silly that in this country you can enter into a legally binding contract, fight in a war, and vote, three years before you can drink alcohol. I wouldn’t favor doing away with the drinking age all together, just being consistent.</p>
<p>I’m not much of a drinker myself (maybe 1-2 drinks once a month, and note that I’m of legal age to do so), or a partier for that matter. I also believe that actions have consequences, some of which are conveniently built in (e.g. if you drink too much, you become ill), and some of which have to be imposed (e.g. if people who attend your parties keep being found drunk or passed out in the streets, you don’t get to have any more parties, and have to develop and give presentations to others on the responsibilities that come with party hosting) but that doesn’t mean that any given consequence is appropriate for any given action.</p>
<p>jessiehl, it took me too long to write and you posted before I did!</p>
<p>Prof Freedman’s detailed knowledge of the old days at Wisconsin (including getting beer on the meal plans and the long defunct Fasching celebration) made me suspect his background. So…</p>
<p>"Professor Freedman received his B.A. from the University of Wisconsin. He has worked as a reporter for the Bridgewater (N.J) Courier-News, Chicago Tribune’s Suburban Trib and The New York Times. He has been a contributor to Rolling Stone, Salon,and The New York Times and a contributing correspondent to PBS Religion & Ethics Newsweekly. He is a member of the USA Today Board of Contributors and an adjunct professor of theatre at the Columbia University School of the Arts, 1984.</p>
<p>He is the author of Small Victories: The Real World of a Teacher, Her Students and Their High School (1990), Upon This Rock: The Miracles of a Black Church (1993), The Inheritance: How Three Families and America Moved from Roosevelt to Reagan and Beyond (1996), Jew vs. Jew: The Struggle for the Soul of American Jewry (2000.)</p>
<p>His achievements include being a finalist for the National Book Award, 1990; winning theHelen Bernstein Award for Excellence in Journalism, 1993; being named a finalist for the Pulitzer Prizes, 1997; winning the New Jersey Humanities Council Book Award, 1997; earning the Distinguished Teaching in Journalism Award, Society of Professional Journalists, 1997; and winning the National Jewish Book Award, 2000.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>In my experience, this is completely untrue.</p>
<p>I grew up upstairs from the bar my mother operated. I worked there on a daily basis from a young age, in a variety of roles. I saw a lot of people walk out the door drunk, and promptly get nabbed for DWI. Most (not all) learned their lesson. Punishment worked.</p>
<p>In one case (at least) the drunken customer caused a serious accident, and my mother took a good deal of heat from the local police. She and the rest of the bar tenders paid a lot more attention to the state their customers were in from that point on. Punishment, or threat of, worked.</p>
<p>My aunt caused a fatal collision while driving drunk (not a fluke, she was an alcoholic). She was hauled into court on manslaughter charges, and only escaped conviction because the victim had a bad driving record. She never took another drink. Punishment worked.</p>
<p>My brother went partying as a 20-yr old, was dead drunk when he was caught in a violation of the law (potential property damage) that would have resulted in a felony conviction if the injured party had not offered to drop charges if my brother paid him A LOT OF MONEY (the victim’s idea, not my brother’s, BTW). Yes, a bribe, but a deal nonetheless. Brother straightened out pronto, holds a very responsible job, has a lovely family, and never drinks more than a beer or two at any time, and that is not regularly. Punishment (vastly reduced paycheck for two years) worked.</p>
<p>Where is the evidence that threat of suspension or expulsion does not serve to give young adults pause before engaging in dangerous, even deadly, behavior? It sure would be nice if posters and lectured always worked, but, well, they don’t.</p>
<p>My son was sent off to college fully aware of my expectations. He has always been a very responsible kid, and I’m not worried. If he disappoints me and puts his future in danger, I would appreciated being informed, and I don’t really care who it is who does the informing.</p>
<p>Jessie:</p>
<p>I’m not in favor of expelling students, either, as a first recourse. And I’m pretty sure that UWisc has tried many if not most of the measures you list, if only because the problem is of such long standing; whereas the parental notification policy is fairly recent. And notifying parents of their students’ transgression is a much less drastic measure than expelling them or suspending them.
But Barrons is also right that it’s not the university’s job to solve students’ drinking and drugs problems. A university is not a giant detox center. So if students do not shape up, the university has the right to expect them to take their problems elsewhere. It’s not punishment. It’s not like UWisc is sending them to jail.</p>
<p>jessiehl said:
"I think it’s inappropriate for the college to enforce a particular dynamic. "</p>
<p>I agree 100% with this. What next, a call from the student medical center because their 18 y.o. is having unprotected sex, bingeing and purging, has become depressed? Responsibility lies with the 18 y.o. at this point.</p>
<p>jessiehl said:
</p>
<p>Yet, many colleges do not hesitate to enforce their own, very specific vision of the ideal student body at the point of admission.</p>
<p>Is it only the admissions office of MIT that cares about the “fit” of the student for the mission of the school? Once you are in, anything goes?</p>
<br>
<br>
<p>And then, if the student commits suicide and the parents sue, the college just pays up? Or if the student exhibits erratic behavior and goes on a rampage, as in V Tech? Cho was above 18, wasn’t he?</p>
<p>“Responsibility lies with the 18 y.o. at this point.”</p>
<p>Why?? And please no simplistic response such as “because they are “legal” adults once they turn 18” or if “they are old enough to go to war…” since those are only arbitrary social rules that have little to do with what we currently know (and did not know a couple of decades ago) about the physiological/ emotional/ psychological development of 18 yrs olds (their brains are not yet fully mature yet, why would we ever think they should be?)</p>
<p>Sarahsmom- Your sample must be pretty small, because I can cite many situations in which home substance abuse education was done, rules were enforced, the parents were not “partiers” but the kids went hog-wild in high school AND college. Good for you, but you sure come off as sounding pretty self-righteous.
Talk to some faculty at high schools and boarding prep schools and see what they have to say about student drinking. It is rampant, and the issue involves the “good” kids from wonderful, boundary-enforcing homes such as yours as well as the “lax” households where teens run wild.</p>
<p>In my opinion, the only reason that people are considered “adults” at 18 in this country is because we needed them to fight in wars. 18 olds are developmentally children. PET scans of the brain prove that their brains are still not fully developed. They still need plenty of input from their parents, their schools and other responsible adults. They also need and actually want some boundaries and I think that we do our kids a huge disservice when we wipe our hands of their care and responsibility for their behavior.</p>
<p>I could also go tit for tat on the number of kids I know whose parents are very strict and who are closet drinkers and druggers. They’re the ones that tend to pose the most danger to themselves and others because they’re the ones driving after using (they’re too afraid to call mom and dad, or get someone else to take them home, because they know they’ll get in huge trouble).</p>
<p>Being somewhat understanding of youthful indiscretions while at the same time communicating expectations and disappointment as well as keeping the lines of communication open…is not the same thing as wiping our hands of their care. OTOH, in my book the “just say no” and “if I ever hear of you doing this, you’ll never see the light of day” approach is sort of wiping the hands of their care. It’s burying one’s head in the sand. MANY children of parents who swear their kids don’t touch the stuff, do. They just can’t talk to their parents about it. It’s the same dynamic with sex issues and teens.</p>
<p>Thank whatever higher power that the university I attend doesn’t do this.</p>
<p>I think the drinking age should be lowered to reflect its status in many other parts of the world (say 16 for beer, 18 for liquor), and education on how to drink safely and part safely increased, instead of this crap about how students should never drink underage, and so forth. That said, I’m also in favor of legalizing most drugs, so maybe I’m a bit out there.</p>
<p>People need to be free to make their own choice. They also need to be educated about the possible consequences of those choices, but I really think it’s counterproductive to keep treating people as if they don’t have the ability to make choices for themselves.</p>
<p>So, sarahsmom42, in answer to your question, yes. We should lower the drinking age, let people serve beer, and if it makes kids safer, provide vomitoriums for them. Absolutely.</p>
<p>Why scansmom?
…because we are talking about young adults that have been sent AWAY from home to college. They are expected to function as young adults. If a parent feels that their 18 y.o.'s brain is not fully mature and that 18 y.o. still requires helicoptering over they have the option to not send them away. Like any other adult choice (military service, sex, nutrition, exercise, relationships, work) they need to learn to balance what is in front of them. Part of growing up is learning to manage time and choices. Of course they will make mistakes; making them within the somewhat buffered environment of a college campus is the ideal place.</p>
<p>A year ago, my son came downstairs in the morning and told me he had brought his friend home from a party the night before (to our home) because he had been drinking, and he was upstairs asleep. My son didn’t want him to drive- he said his friend was not extremely drunk, or sick, but he didn’t feel it would be safe to drive. (We’ve always told our kids if they ever have even one drink, not to drive.)</p>
<p>You might think I’m a terrible parent for not calling up his folks and telling on him. But what would that have solved- he would never have come over to our house if he knew I was going to tell on him. He would have driven himself home and possibly killed someone.</p>
<p>My kids were never afraid to call home & did. We drove several kids home after late parties involving drinking. Our kids actually used us as an excuse sometimes…“I don’t want to drink because my mom will be up waiting and she’ll smell it on me.” Sorry. It worked at our house and many of my sibs. houses. You don’t have to be a tyrant to have rules and boundaries. You just have to have REASONABLE rules and boundaries and be consistant about enforcing them.</p>
<p>My girls both go to school far away & they do drink sometimes, we’ve served wine w/meals for years. I never said that you have to chain them to the dorm room or hover. (I don’t call them)
Moderation is a good thing.</p>
<p>Like doubleplay I am not AT ALL advocating wiping your hands of helping your young adult transiton fully to responsible adulthood. The alternative of laying down absolute rules and then hiding your head in the sand does not work. I know countless teens and young adults from households with absolutes, the parents are clueless.</p>
<p>doubleplay. I don’t think you are a terrible parent for not calling the parents. I would not have either unless he were vommitting all night or we had to haul him to the ER.</p>